[JeepBB]

Sorry mate, that's the HTC One or 930 for now. 1520 is massive

You insult my phone... you insult me... That's fightin' talk

Joking aside, and obviously I *am* joking in the line above for the avoidance of doubt.... I agree with you that the 1520 is a huge handful, and not for everyone. I love mine, even though I'm sure that I look a bit of a prat holding it to my ear on the infrequent times I use it as a phone. LOL

I think though that the point I was making stands. Every product needs a flagship, that is feature/spec packed and often unaffordable to many or at least expensive to acquire. It waves the flag and is aspirational - that same flagship rule applies in every market, from cars to phones and everything in between.

[sentimentGX4]

the majority of the WP market share is made of low and middle-end phones, just like android. See the pattern? unless you are apple, high-end/high-prices phones don't win you the race.

I continue to insist that no major OEMs, except Apple, know how to properly put together a high end phone. When an actual competitor emerges, it can share the high end niche.



There are OEMs using low end materials, like Samsung. Then there are those which use quality materials that need a more artistic design, like HTC. Only Apple really has everything put together.

[Ebuka Allison]

You insult my phone... you insult me... That's fightin' talk

Joking aside, and obviously I *am* joking in the line above for the avoidance of doubt.... I agree with you that the 1520 is a huge handful, and not for everyone. I love mine, even though I'm sure that I look a bit of a prat holding it to my ear on the infrequent times I use it as a phone. LOL

I think though that the point I was making stands. Every product needs a flagship, that is feature/spec packed and often unaffordable to many or at least expensive to acquire. It waves the flag and is aspirational - that same flagship rule applies in every market, from cars to phones and everything in between.

There are actually 3 flagships though, Lumia 930, HTC One and Ativ SE. The Samsung is the BEST WP imho. Good Camera, specs, battery life etc

[sati01]

Firefox OS will take the 4th place soon with those $25 phones.

[BK_NY_RAY]

Windows numbers are somewhat surprising, since the majority opinion on CB was that BlackBerry would be the third ecosystem.

How? Low cost low and mid end phones = more sales = more apps = even more sales.

Posted via CB10

[BK_NY_RAY]

Whilst MS has the Luxury of Huge resources ,BlackBerry doesn't, their approach is controlled and if the market does not respond (consumer side) they would not have lost the house. this is a pretty smart move by them. The market growth by MS of only one percent even after pouring huge resources is testament to this.

Posted via CB10

What huge resources? Release low cost phones does not require huge resources. Also, they let other companies make phones for them.

Posted via CB10

[slagman5]

I continue to insist that no major OEMs, except Apple, know how to properly put together a high end phone. When an actual competitor emerges, it can share the high end niche.



There are OEMs using low end materials, like Samsung. Then there are those which use quality materials that need a more artistic design, like HTC. Only Apple really has everything put together.

What high end phone has Apple released? I'm confused...

?Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

[BK_NY_RAY]

Would it kill BlackBerry to let others make BlackBerry 10 phones? Would it kill them to release low and mid end phones with good, competitive pricing? Sheesh.

Posted via CB10

[--TommesJay--]

Would it kill BlackBerry to let others make BlackBerry 10 phones?

Seeing them being alive after releasing the Z3 I say no.


Posted via CB10

[BK_NY_RAY]

Seeing them being alive after releasing the Z3 I say no.


Posted via CB10

How does it compare to comparable phones? Specs wise, features, price, etc.? Also, it had a very limited release, no?

So, I don't think the Z3 counts.

Posted via CB10

[crackbrry fan]

What huge resources? Release low cost phones does not require huge resources. Also, they let other companies make phones for them.

Posted via CB10

Where are the margins? Most manufacturers suffer losses with low end market Android can do it. Their handsets is the back end business to their main, which is advertising revenue, therefore they can "absorb " losses producing lower end devices. BlackBerry can't do that nor would I want them to.

Posted via CB10

[Troy Tiscareno]

Would it kill BlackBerry to let others make BlackBerry 10 phones? Would it kill them to release low and mid end phones with good, competitive pricing? Sheesh.

Unfortunately, BB's business model requires BB to make a good chunk of money from each phone sold - they don't have any other means of making up all of the money they spend on R&D, which is significant, or any other costs the company has. They've even largely abandoned BB World, so there are few revenues from that either. With no BIS, there are no longer monthly service fees on everly phone as their used to be. The only real opportunity to make money is on the initial phone sale, so if they miss it there, they go into the red.

While part of that is a result of BB's market position, a big reason for this is due to BB's making security a priority. That limits their use of customer data, so they can't do things like targeted advertising (something Apple, Google, and MS all do), which allows all of them to subsidize their phone businesses to some degree (and/or just enhances profits). BB also doesn't have its own cloud services that it can make money on either, such as buying extra cloud storage on iCloud, Drive, or OneDrive.

Because of BB's priority on security, it forces them to adopt a business model that makes it very difficult for BB to compete in the consumer market. This is one reason why BB has largely abandoned the consumer market in developed markets and has focused on enterprises instead, where they can get a premium price for their phones. BB has to get a premium price, so folks who want BB phones need to get used to paying a premium price for them. As you can see from the Z3's pricing, even their "entry-level" phones cost nearly double what someone like Xiomai would price a phone of the same hardware, and that's because BB has to pay for all of the development and administrative costs that keep BB alive, using only the profits from the handset sales.

[Troy Tiscareno]

Where are the margins? Most manufacturers suffer losses with low end market Android can do it. Their handsets is the back end business to their main, which is advertising revenue, therefore they can "absorb " losses producing lower end devices. BlackBerry can't do that nor would I want them to.

Android manufacturers aren't paying for any R&D for the OS or its ecosystem - Google provides that for free already. And even the limited amount of costs for integration they used to have to do with drivers and such is going away with the Android One program, where all they need to do is use a specific range of hardware and Google will handle the rest. For an Android manufacturer, the only real costs are the design of the hardware, and manufacturing production, something all manufacturers have to deal with. There is no license fee for the OS to take a big chunk of profits.

BB could not afford to give away BB10 - they have no other sources of revenue to pay for all of the R&D for BB10; that has to come from phone sales. And why would any manufacturer pay for BB10 when they could have Android (with 80% global marketshare - a proven sales winner) for free? That's why, after a year of looking, BB wasn't able to find any OEMs interested in licensing BB10.

[TGR1]

Of course. I actually like WP8/8.1 very much. And MS actually has a more robust app store, without "cheating" with Android ports.

They also released WP to other OEMs (like google did), and I think BB should allow other manufacturers to use BB10 (although I am not sure who would actually do that).

Small market still and I think the other WP OEMs are struggling competing against MS/Nokia for the same skinny sliver of pie. I think it would run the same for BBRY, especially since I doubt the loyalists would even agree to pick up a non-BB pkb.

[BK_NY_RAY]

Where are the margins? Most manufacturers suffer losses with low end market Android can do it. Their handsets is the back end business to their main, which is advertising revenue, therefore they can "absorb " losses producing lower end devices. BlackBerry can't do that nor would I want them to.

Posted via CB10

Are you talking about revenue from ads? If so, then BlackBerry could do that and if it means more income then they should.

Posted via CB10

[BK_NY_RAY]

Unfortunately, BB's business model requires BB to make a good chunk of money from each phone sold - they don't have any other means of making up all of the money they spend on R&D, which is significant, or any other costs the company has. They've even largely abandoned BB World, so there are few revenues from that either. With no BIS, there are no longer monthly service fees on everly phone as their used to be. The only real opportunity to make money is on the initial phone sale, so if they miss it there, they go into the red.

While part of that is a result of BB's market position, a big reason for this is due to BB's making security a priority. That limits their use of customer data, so they can't do things like targeted advertising (something Apple, Google, and MS all do), which allows all of them to subsidize their phone businesses to some degree (and/or just enhances profits). BB also doesn't have its own cloud services that it can make money on either, such as buying extra cloud storage on iCloud, Drive, or OneDrive.

Because of BB's priority on security, it forces them to adopt a business model that makes it very difficult for BB to compete in the consumer market. This is one reason why BB has largely abandoned the consumer market in developed markets and has focused on enterprises instead, where they can get a premium price for their phones. BB has to get a premium price, so folks who want BB phones need to get used to paying a premium price for them. As you can see from the Z3's pricing, even their "entry-level" phones cost nearly double what someone like Xiomai would price a phone of the same hardware, and that's because BB has to pay for all of the development and administrative costs that keep BB alive, using only the profits from the handset sales.

Is the Xiomai popular? If not, then matching (or surpassing) the most popular phones is all that has to be done.

Posted via CB10

[BK_NY_RAY]

Stop. Other companies made WP phones before it reached the level it is at now. Also, of LG, Sony and others have made and are making Firefox OS phones, which aren't even officially out yet to consumers, then why wouldn't they make BlackBerry 10 phones. And who cares about the loyalists? They are irrelevant because they will support regardless. The most important market is the non loyalists because they get what's best for them regardless of brand.

Posted via CB10

[BK_NY_RAY]

Is there a huge difference between what BlackBerry, Google / apple / Microsoft do and have?

Both make money from phones sold.
BlackBerry makes money from BBM stickers.
BlackBerry makes more, or will make, money from the enterprise BBM.
BlackBerry makes money from all apps. I think Google, Apple and or Microsfot don'tmake as much, right?
Google makes money from ads, BlackBerry could do the same.
BlackBerry makes money from BBM Channels, right?

And isn't BlackBerry having more ways to make money soon? Plus, all the QNX car and medical stuff.

Posted via CB10

[crackbrry fan]

Android manufacturers aren't paying for any R&D for the OS or its ecosystem - Google provides that for free already. And even the limited amount of costs for integration they used to have to do with drivers and such is going away with the Android One program, where all they need to do is use a specific range of hardware and Google will handle the rest. For an Android manufacturer, the only real costs are the design of the hardware, and manufacturing production, something all manufacturers have to deal with. There is no license fee for the OS to take a big chunk of profits.

BB could not afford to give away BB10 - they have no other sources of revenue to pay for all of the R&D for BB10; that has to come from phone sales. And why would any manufacturer pay for BB10 when they could have Android (with 80% global marketshare - a proven sales winner) for free? That's why, after a year of looking, BB wasn't able to find any OEMs interested in licensing BB10.

I think I essentially have said this before
Thanks . I DONT want BlackBerry Licensing out anything neither do I believe they will maintain their target markets if they do.

Posted via CB10

[crackbrry fan]

Is there a huge difference between what BlackBerry, Google / apple / Microsoft do and have?

Both make money from phones sold.
BlackBerry makes money from BBM stickers.
BlackBerry makes more, or will make, money from the enterprise BBM.
BlackBerry makes money from all apps. I think Google, Apple and or Microsfot don'tmake as much, right?
Google makes money from ads, BlackBerry could do the same.
BlackBerry makes money from BBM Channels, right?

And isn't BlackBerry having more ways to make money soon? Plus, all the QNX car and medical stuff.

Posted via CB10

It's a huge difference, the business models isn't the same. BlackBerry isn't going to go the ad revenue side at least not like Google does, they aren't going that intrusive. They will derive revenue through Channels if they chose.
Apple products aren't cheap either, they have a closed system that requires the consumer to invest heavily. Don't expect to see "cheap " devices from them.
Posted via CB10

[BK_NY_RAY]

Apple has the most popular phone, they don't need to lower their prices or do anything different. What they've been doing is working. Completely different than BlackBerry.

Posted via CB10

[crackbrry fan]

Apple has the most popular phone, they don't need to lower their prices or do anything different. What they've been doing is working. Completely different than BlackBerry.

Posted via CB10

BlackBerry wanted to follow their model (IOS) hence the playbook, the market didn't respond positively. They can't afford at this stage to be throwing money at consumer market at present. They are focusing on Enterprise right now to stop the tailspin free fall they were on. Seems to be working so far . Once enterprise and other software developing that they have, starts returning to profit they will then be able to assess the consumer side. They haven't abandoned it entirely as evidenced by the Z3. Apple gets revenue from Apps and accessories tablets etc, that they packaged in a form that appealed to many especially the youth. BlackBerry doesn't have to be them, they just need to be BlackBerry a secure platform and build from there.

Posted via CB10

[Tre Lawrence]

Is there a huge difference between what BlackBerry, Google / apple / Microsoft do and have?

Both make money from phones sold.
BlackBerry makes money from BBM stickers.
BlackBerry makes more, or will make, money from the enterprise BBM.
BlackBerry makes money from all apps. I think Google, Apple and or Microsfot don'tmake as much, right?
Google makes money from ads, BlackBerry could do the same.
BlackBerry makes money from BBM Channels, right?

And isn't BlackBerry having more ways to make money soon? Plus, all the QNX car and medical stuff.

Posted via CB10

The other big platforms all have other income streams outside of mobile devices.

BBRY faces a lot more pressure.

I don't think QNX is the money maker we once thought it was.

[Ebuka Allison]

What high end phone has Apple released? I'm confused...

?Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

You're neither funny nor cute

[Carrtman]

Microsoft just like with their Surface series is using a boatload of money and they still only managed to increase their marketshare by 1 % what does that tell us ? Ios and Android are in two different galaxies compared to everyone else.

Android - the ultimate customization heaven with tons of apps, user freedom and a range from highend (G3, Galaxy, Note, HTC...) to low end.It doesn't force you to use stuff you don't want to use.

IoS - Walled garden with tons of apps and restrictions

Both combined are having over 95 % marketshare so that leaves 5 % for the rest. The good thing for BB is all they need is 10.000.000 in a year to stay in the business so if they can really hit the security park while providing productivity features they might have a niche no other OS has been able to fill. Yes you can make Android more secure but it takes a bit of knowledge and some willingness to sacrifice comfort.