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  1. CrackedBarry's Avatar
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    #26  

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    Quote Originally Posted by Masahiro View Post
    Meh. Physical keyboards were very intuitive at first, but look at things now...
    Yet some people still prefer them over the virtual ones.

    But this is besides the point. I think OP meant to speculate that BB10 will kill both physical and virtual home buttons, not just replace the physical home button with a virtual home button.
  2. grahamf's Avatar
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    #27  

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrackedBarry View Post
    Ooh! A thinly veiled insult... How cute! The last resort of the scoundrel, and the guy who's running out of arguments fast.

    Thank you very much for proving my point! On screen gestures are so counter intuitive, that RIM needed to put up stickers and cardboard signs to explain people how to turn on and use their tablet. That really speaks for itself, doesn't it?

    Contrast that with the iPad that ALSO have gestures to change apps or return to the home screen AS WELL as a physical home button. If they wanted to, they could have replaced that home button a long time ago. But a physical home button has advantages that you can't get with only gestures. One of those is that's its intuitive. You don't need to put on a sticker that explains how you need to press the button, people know that. We've been used to pressing buttons to make stuff happen for well over 100 years. That intuitive factor is good to hold on to alongside physical gestures.
    Moving a device in order to manipulate a sprite on a computer monitor wasn't considered intuitive at first, but then it became the de facto input device. I remember my Windows 95 computer initial setup program covered the basics of how to use a mouse (such as moving and clicking), and every Blackberry I've seen has a short tutorial about how to use the trackpad and buttons (older ones had a longer version, and my 9100 walked me through using SureType). It's impossible to build a computer device that you can instantly figure out at one glance. But you can make something that people immediately understand how to use once it's shown to them once. Even the iPhone. Notice how every single ad shows how to use the home button?

    And as for the iOS gestures, they're not really well implemented compared to the Playbook's version. A simple flick up, you only have to be shown once to get. But it will take a while to remember the right way to fiddle with five fingers in order to go to the homescreen.
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  3. CrackedBarry's Avatar
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    #28  

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    So a flick up with one finger is simple and intuitive, but when you do the same flick with four or five fingers its "fiddling" and not well implemented. Riiiiight. That certainly doesn't seem like a biased and calculated opinion at all! No siree!

    (And its the pinch gesture btw. that you use to get to the home screen. You know, the pinch gesture thats so intuitive and easy that every other manufacturer has implemented it, since the iPhone was introduced)
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  4. sam_b77's Avatar
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    #29  

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    This is hilarious. A few months back the iFans were saying that physical buttons are ancient (BB keyboards), and now the same people are defending the physical button on iDevices calling it stuff like intuitive etc. I guess since Apple makes a button that's the only way to do things. Apple's way or the highway is the mantra for iFans.
    Laughable as it is, the button way is an old dinasaur. Apple can't change it because their OS is old and has not originally been designed keeping gestures in mind. That's why their gesture implementation is horrendous. Apple will need to upgrade the technology on their aging OS sooner or later, but very few companies have been able to sucessfully transition their technology (paraphrasing someone here). With the entrenched user base and huge library of Applications, Apple will find it very difficult to bring a huge change without losing its faithfull hordes of button crazy fans who think only buttons are inutitive and making apps on the current platform redundant.
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  5. Bold_until_Hybrid_Comes's Avatar
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    #30  

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrackedBarry View Post
    Having only gestures is fundamentally counter intuitive first of all because it has to be learned. (There is only one way to press a button, but gestures can be from all sorts of directions, and can be different from platform to platform). Secondly, people are used to buttons. For well over a hundred years, people have been used to operate things by pressing a button is how you make things happen. And sorry, change just for changes sake is stupid.

    As for your excellent example with the high beams, please note that they moved the function ton something that is fundamentally a button. (albeit with more directions to be pressed in) They didn't implement a gesture where the high beams turn on when you wave your hand in a certain direction, though that would certainly be possible today.

    The fundamental layout of a car hasn't changed for close to a hundred years. There's a good reason for that, just like there's a good reason for keeping the home button.

    Now that doesn't mean that gestures are useless, they're not. I sure do appreciate being able to go from app to app just by swiping on my iPad. But a physical home button has some advantages that gestures can never replace. That's its intuitive is just one. It can also be operated without turning the device on, and it makes one handed operation easier.
    Wow lol. If people are used to something it shouldn't be changed? I rest my case.
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  6. coldsword's Avatar
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    #31  

    Default Just Speculating. BB10 will kill the "home button".

    i wish apple will have the hard home button in the looong future and they never change. i'm sure there are tons of die hard fans supporting it. because apple is well known as "user friendly" and i'll be playing with my bb10 in the near future.

    when pb was first launched, i went to futureshop and tried the demo pb, there was nobody explaining how it worked and i didnt know how to use the gesture at all and there was no up arrow sticker. i left finally without figuring it out.

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  7. Bold_until_Hybrid_Comes's Avatar
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    #32  

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    Yes in 2030 phones will have a home button. Its the way of the future and intuitive. Not!!!
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  8. Masahiro's Avatar
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    #33  

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrackedBarry View Post
    Having only gestures is fundamentally counter intuitive first of all because it has to be learned. (There is only one way to press a button, but gestures can be from all sorts of directions, and can be different from platform to platform). Secondly, people are used to buttons. For well over a hundred years, people have been used to operate things by pressing a button is how you make things happen. And sorry, change just for changes sake is stupid.
    Change just for changes sake is stupid? I find that comment very ironic, as there was that one phone that came out almost six years ago. What was special about that phone was that it had a touchscreen, which was rare back in the day, and only one main button on the front of it. It also had a touch-friendly interface with gestures like pinch-to-zoom and flick scrolling that was in stark contrast to all other phones that had either T9 word (or some variation of it), or a full qwerty keyboard. In other words, it was a market once dominated by "buttons", which people have been using for years prior with their touch tone phones at home.

    By your logic, however, consumers didn't want to change their habits, so the device ultimately failed...right?

    P.S. Yes, I'm aware that touchscreen phones were around during that time.
    P.P.S. I swore by the physical keyboard, but I look forward to giving the L-series a try!
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  9. CrackedBarry's Avatar
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    #34  

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    Quote Originally Posted by sam_b77 View Post
    This is hilarious. A few months back the iFans were saying that physical buttons are ancient (BB keyboards), and now the same people are defending the physical button on iDevices calling it stuff like intuitive etc.
    SURELY you are intelligent enough to be able to tell the difference between a button or even several buttons and 30 buttons grouped together and called a keyboard? You do know that for example a car and a bus are two different vehicles with different roles, despite the fact that they both have wheels and transport people, right?

    I fail to see how a home screen button or a volume button are the same as a keyboard. Would you also cry "hypocrite! they both have wheels!" to say, a proponent of collective transport, because he would like to promote busses and might suggest to prohibit cars in inner cities.
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  10. CrackedBarry's Avatar
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    #35  

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    Quote Originally Posted by Masahiro View Post
    Change just for changes sake is stupid? I find that comment very ironic, as there was that one phone that came out almost six years ago. What was special about that phone was that it had a touchscreen, which was rare back in the day, and only one main button on the front of it. It also had a touch-friendly interface with gestures like pinch-to-zoom and flick scrolling that was in stark contrast to all other phones that had either T9 word (or some variation of it), or a full qwerty keyboard. In other words, it was a market once dominated by "buttons", which people have been using for years prior with their touch tone phones at home.
    Yes, of course change just for the sake of changing something is dumb. That's why you don't see car manufacturers come out with square steering wheels all of a sudden. Or change the location of the drivers seat from year to year.

    What Apple did with the iPhone wasn't to say "let's make something completely different!" They said "Let's make it better!" And they took a bunch of pre existing parts and technologies (touchscreens for example) as well as new ones (Gorilla Glass) and put it together in a new and better way. The total was greater than the sum of its parts, and despite lacking certain features and having trade offs, the end result was so good that people loved it despite those lacks and drawbacks.

    A physical home and volume button has certain advantages over on screen gestures or virtual buttons, that's a good reason for keeping it, as well as incooperating on screen gestures, instead of replacing it "just cause its old".

    Heck, the BB 10 has voloume buttons and a shutter button. Shouldn't they also be replaced with on screen gestures, if they're so great and new?
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  11. Roo Zilla's Avatar
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    #36  

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    They removed all the buttons one time on the iPod Shuffle. People told Apple they wanted them back. The original iPod Touch didn't have volume buttons, people told them they wanted them. It seems a large number of people like buttons for certain functions. Whether that applies to the "Home" button, I'm not sure. I don't doubt Apple has done significant research on this topic and have considered removing it. After all, this is the company that insists you don't need more than one button on your mouse, and would get rid of that too if they could.
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  12. sam_b77's Avatar
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    #37  

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrackedBarry View Post
    SURELY you are intelligent enough to be able to tell the difference between a button or even several buttons and 30 buttons grouped together and called a keyboard? You do know that for example a car and a bus are two different vehicles with different roles, despite the fact that they both have wheels and transport people, right?

    I fail to see how a home screen button or a volume button are the same as a keyboard. Would you also cry "hypocrite! they both have wheels!" to say, a proponent of collective transport, because he would like to promote busses and might suggest to prohibit cars in inner cities.
    You are grasping at straws now. I don't even see where you bus, car and wheel analogy fits here.
    You might find the button simple, I don't. I find it extremely frustrating to keep pressing the button on the iPhone or iPad. It's not intuitive for me. And as for the iFans claims that BB users are simple, the reason I touch iPhones is to solve the problems the simpleton iPhone users cannot with their phones.
    As for your assertion about the need for a physical button on a touch screen device, that is your choice. There are people who can like a different experience. But since you are one of those, I guess the only way to do things for you is the way Apple deigns it. If Apple were to discard the button tomorrow morning, you'd be singing a very different tune.
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  13. CrackedBarry's Avatar
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    #38  

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    Since buttons are so unintuitive and frustrating for you, I find it odd you don't complain about the upcoming BB10 phones use of volume buttons and a camera button... Surely you can't wait for RIM to get rid off those stale and unintuitive buttons and be replaced with gestures, right?

    And no, you don't NEED to press the home button on an iPad or iPhone. You can use gestures to replace it, if you don't like pressing it. Just like on a Playbook. It has advantages over gestures, and I and many others apparently prefer the physical button, but its not necessary per se.
    So I really think this hate you have for a button you never need to touch as a user, is more the result of Apple making the product rather than anything else. Thou doth protest a bit too much about fanboys singing songs and being hypocritical, (despite knowing very little about what devices in own and use) pot calling the kettle black, perhaps?
  14. #39  

    Default Re: Just Speculating. BB10 will kill the "home button".

    Do you guys realise you are debating personal preferences, assigning values to them, and extrapolating them to everyone else?



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  15. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
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    #40  

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    I understand for full touch but I like my end call/home button and keyboard shortcuts which are an even more advanced "home button"

    So it's an yes and no at the same time
  16. sam_b77's Avatar
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    #41  

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrackedBarry View Post
    Since buttons are so unintuitive and frustrating for you, I find it odd you don't complain about the upcoming BB10 phones use of volume buttons and a camera button... Surely you can't wait for RIM to get rid off those stale and unintuitive buttons and be replaced with gestures, right?

    And no, you don't NEED to press the home button on an iPad or iPhone. You can use gestures to replace it, if you don't like pressing it. Just like on a Playbook. It has advantages over gestures, and I and many others apparently prefer the physical button, but its not necessary per se.
    So I really think this hate you have for a button you never need to touch as a user, is more the result of Apple making the product rather than anything else. Thou doth protest a bit too much about fanboys singing songs and being hypocritical, (despite knowing very little about what devices in own and use) pot calling the kettle black, perhaps?
    I don't hate the buttons. I hate the blind support for the button because it's Apple and blind disdain for gestures because it is BlackBerry. If it were the other way round you would have been for gestures and against home button. We aren't debating personal preferences here, we are debating pre-conceived notions.
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    #42  

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    Quote Originally Posted by sam_b77 View Post
    I don't hate the buttons. I hate the blind support for the button because it's Apple and blind disdain for gestures because it is BlackBerry. If it were the other way round you would have been for gestures and against home button. We aren't debating personal preferences here, we are debating pre-conceived notions.
    These guys are Apple die hard fans as we are BB, no point arguing with them really. This just keep going round and round and round.
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    #43  

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    I'm not sure the home button is an issue. It works fine....although, it is more awkward on an iPad, it serves the purpose well on a phone or touch thou IMO. A double click brings up active apps. Personally I like gestures over buttons (with the exception of the BB Menu button....it has function), I forever find myself swiping in pointless directions in my wifes iPad to get it to do something, and it never does LOL ......... and I don't even have a PB (yet), so its not like I'm used to one thing over another.

    To the OP's original point, I don't think BB10 will move a trend to no home buttons, I think Apple will continue on with it (again, I don't see an issue with a home button). Their biggest issue IMO is not so much that folks think the OS is stale (I think its fine for what it is), I think the biggest issue is the fact it will and is becoming more fragmented, and if they need to take the next leap to mobile computing, the current iOS won't be able to do it. a completely new OS will be needed, and then what happens to the vast ecosystem that gave Apples its legs?
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    #44  

    Default Just Speculating. BB10 will kill the "home button".

    Quote Originally Posted by Bold_until_Hybrid_Comes View Post
    Apple is indeed looking stale. In app-home screen-other app-In app-home screen-other app-In app-home screen-other app-In app-home screen-other app...

    You have to go to the home screen all the time for no reason if im browsing the web and i get a message why should i have to see a home screen first?
    In fairness to Apple and their users, your notification menu is accessed when receiving a message. There is no need for you to visit the homepage.

    With that being said, I do hate how the homescreen has to be accessed with the majority of tasks.

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    #45  

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tatperson View Post
    You're very wrong here. Google implemented the button-less phone layout with ICS starting with the Galaxy Nexus, and although it's taking quite some time, companies are slowly starting to take advantage of it (Sony, Motorola, Acer already have their latest phones using this particular layout).

    Sent from the world's (once) most powerful smartphone.
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    #46  

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    here here. ppl are on the edge of there seats with bb10 just around the corner. the Iphone is no longer innovative, ppl want innovation, something new, and refreshing.

    bb10 Will deliver, it will not disappoint.

    bring on the new true super phone. BB10
    presently rocking a trio of Zeddy,Q10,PB.
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  22. mooda's Avatar
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    #47  

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    i don't get it. If I'm in the middle of something on my itouch and i get a new message i can pull down the notification and I'm into the message no home screen seen. While BB10 offers a different way of doing it it doesn't mean other platforms cant. BB10 only does away with the in out paradigm if you are already in the hub. outside of it you going in and out just like every other platform.
    Ne way cant wait to get my L series #71 on the rogers reservation list
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    #48  

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    Quote Originally Posted by AVPTI View Post
    Not to mention the iPad's "gestures" are awkward as awkward can get.

    It's like a game "how many fingers can you fit on the screen and swipe to change apps?"
    Agreed. Beyond unnatural.
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    #49  

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    Quote Originally Posted by sam_b77 View Post
    I don't hate the buttons. I hate the blind support for the button because it's Apple and blind disdain for gestures because it is BlackBerry. If it were the other way round you would have been for gestures and against home button. We aren't debating personal preferences here, we are debating pre-conceived notions.
    You've assigned sides and teams where none exist. Gestures aren't a BB only thing, the only people who think they are don't know anything about iOS other than it supports a home button. Since they can see the button and can't see gestures, they assume the button is the only way of interfacing with the system. THAT is the preconceived notion.

    There are so many assumptions people make about iOS and Android that are either incredibly wrong or based on information that is three or four years old, it's ridiculous.
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    lol phunny(sic) how posters ignore the snide remarks about RIM and continue with an intelligent discussion.....kudos fellas
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