[anon(4268859)]

I "get" that PlayBook 1.0 didn't cut it sufficiently for BB10; between cutting OS functionality so as not to turn a PLAYBook into a <tongue-in-cheek: pun intended> "Master-Bait-Book," it was probably "close, but no cigar" on performance, functionality and usability. WHY?
Let's ALL recall - esp. those Legacy OS users among us - the dreaded "hour glass" or "spinning clock" ... THE most frustrating thing EVER!!! To me, still a multi-hourly exercise in chanting "serenity now, serenity now!"

I mean, why give people the new BB10 when loading up 2 apps will lock it up for 30 seconds every 2 minutes?
And why cut out so much just to make it run "marginally well" that it's really not good for very much at all?
THAT would just be incredible fodder & ammunition for BBRY pundits and enemies.

What I have difficulty coming to terms with, though, is how it could be so hard to upgrade the CPU with a Q/Z10 model and the RAM to 4, heck make it 8, GB (of course, a lot of other components will need upgrading as well; goes without saying) and min. 32-64GB storage (128 for the �ber-geeks).
THEN hit it with BB10.x, an improved Bridge and add a SDHC slot!!! - and "Badda Boom, Badda Bing" ... "PlayBook 3.0" (might as well skip "2" ... too close).

The problem is, BBRY has cut SO much staff and shed SO much IT-development talent - not to mention user-goodwill - that THIS probably isn't in the cards for the forseeable future.
And they cannot afford "Failure 2.0" on the tablet-front (bad enough the flaghsip phones aren't selling "like hotcakes").

That's just what I see. Personally, as long as my playbook does what I want it to - all-round essentials - it's good the way it is; though a few features would make it even better.
C'est la vie, tho' ...

... just my 2 cents' worth from our penny-less land.

Cheers and Keep Moving!

I would love to have this option play out, however the cynical/rational side of me knows that would be the biggest opening Blackberry could give for the haters and tech bashers. They will have a field day criticizing and tearing it up regardless of the amount of disclaimers/warnings/statements.

Sorry, but as much as it is Blackberry's fault for not throwing us a bone after they reneged on their promise, it's also the fault of a society that fosters such cynicism and hostility that Blackberry will not dare release their alpha bb10 for the Playbook.

This thread is turning into this:

[video]http://www.theonion.com/video/new-live-poll-allows-pundits-to-pander-to-viewers,14350/[/url]

only instead of general viewership it's Alec Saunders, and instead of "post office box" it's "Alec Saunders".



Well, that's not true, exactly. Many people here would be happy to download whatever they have for BB10 and would even be willing to click the "this is beta software and voids your warranty" checkbox on the download page. There are ways that they could release this, but that's not even the point, really... the question I have is still unanswered is "will there be a Tablet OS 2.2 or 3.0 or something with better browser / guts?"

Nothing was brought in from BBOS. Nothing...

And the issue is most likely largely about RAM, not "performance" in the usual sense. AIR is slower than Cascades/native apps. Just look at the sluggishness of the Settings app, which on BB10 10.1 and earlier is still an AIR app. Contrast that with the other system apps, which are almost all native at this point. Moving to Cascades would speed things up, but I suspect it ends up sucking up much more memory, and with only 1GB and no way to upgrade, that was likely the killer.

It could be done with enough time... the issue wasn't that it was impossible (I believe) but merely that it would have taken more resources than they were willing to put into it. As an investor, I can accept that argument, even if as a user I really don't like it.

If anyone is wondering why the PlayBook's 1GB of ram isn't sufficient, look at BB10 Dev Alpha A and B ( Spec Shootout: Dev Alpha A vs Dev Alpha B | CrackBerry.com ), it has the same specs as the PlayBook for RAM. And Developers complained it was too laggy. Why do you think dev OS's are so limited now? 1GB of RAM is not enough. And don't give me that Android and iOS crap is optimized for 512mb ram. My SGS3 with 2GB RAM still lagged running Android 4.1.2, and I can guarantee that those running 2.2.3 or lower still complain about how slow their device is. I've even heard iPhone users complain about their phone lagging when trying to do tons of things. BB10 was optimized to run perfectly on 2GB+ RAM, and to be honest, I've seen my phone maybe stutter once or twice, but that's because I'm running leaks, unofficial OS's, and it usually happens when I try to access my HUB as it's syncing something. So that doesn't bother me in the least bit.

Onto the note of Apps. Yes BlackBerry needs those big time players to attract a different generations and age group. Yes I want to see BlackBerry become #1 again. But even if we got those apps what good would it do? I believe BBM cross platform is the proper approach. However, when that happens how does it give the younger generation incentive to switch? Everyone is thinking about apps, when they should be thinking about innovation. What can come next in innovation, in Mobile Computing, that's so big, it'll get everyone's attention again. Not just a simple "We now have Instagram, you can now buy a BlackBerry again".

[STV0726]

What a cop out...people who criticize without offering alternatives are not good people, in my opinion. They are just trouble makers who want to sling unhappiness around. If you're going to criticize but can not suggest how it should be done differently, it's not a 'contribution' to CB.com at all, it's a detriment. That's just my opinion, and clearly not that of CB.com management.

Thank you, Lorax, that was what I was trying to communicate and you said it better.


+1


~STV on Z10STL100-3/10.1.0.2025 TMO US

[leafs123]

I don't think this is true

I think it was in a CB interview or somewhere else where I heard it. I can try to pull it up.

Posted via CB10

[Houshinto]

I very much agree, but that is why the only avenue to get it would be Beta Zone. By definition it is unfinished/test software.

Having it in the Beta zone means little to nothing definitively to those who love to rip a negative Blackberry article. Anything short of having each user agree to download it for educational purposes only in a non-disclosure agreement and imposing a media ban, which is impossible anyways, will result in the aforementioned field day.

Heck, Blackberry could even release it only to employees and it'd still get leaked out and then trashed. Again, not cynical, just being real.

[peter9477]

So it means either one of two things:

1. RIM never had any intention whatsoever of bringing BlackBerry 10 to 1 GB devices at all.

or

2. The engineering teams missed a requirement up front to architect the OS so that it could run on 1 GB and 2 GB devices, turning a little project (reworking the UI for the form factor) into a massive project (huge refactoring effort) too expensive to do.

I think its complete horse**** to assume it's technically impossible to get BlackBerry 10 to run well on the PlayBook. I've seen too many awesome engineers do too many awesome refactorings to make the impossible possible.

I 100% believe the problem is that they didn't do anything more than pay the 1 GB devices lip service up front in the design phase ("we'll worry about it later") and then realized after the fact that it was going to be a colossal effort for minimal returns.

You missed an option, and the ones above are wrong though #2 is close.

#3: They originally intended to get it to run on 1GB, for the original Z10 design, then had to punt on that to get it released in time. The cost was they had to upgrade the hardware platform to 2GB. At that point, the original "it will work no problem on the PlayBook with 1GB" plan became "we still think we can get it to run okay with 1GB but it will take time". Ultimately as we've seen recently that became "it's going to be too much work to get it to work with only 1GB and we can't justify the expense any more".

Note that nowhere in there was there a deliberate lie. There was too much optimism at various times, obviously. Most of us have been guilty of that. (Not all of us run billion dollar companies, mind you...)

Also, as I said above, it's not "technically impossible". It's merely a question of cost/benefit and the resources needed to do it are not justified at this point, in Thorsten's mind.

[BBPandy]

Alec,
It's fantastic to see you engaging in this forum as folks at CB has some great insights. I converted from iphone to BlackBerry and I am extremely impressed.

Two quick points / questions.
1)Why does BlackBerry not send a feedback email to ask it's user base top10 most important Apps they need?
2)So many people have complained about not being able to share and sort on Facebook App on BlackBerry page. Why is this not being corrected.

Most importantly thanks for your hard work.

Posted via CB10

They do, They send out surveys to Beta testers & people who have selected in their BB profiles that they would be open to answering questions.

[RubberChicken76]

#3: They originally intended to get it to run on 1GB, for the original Z10 design, then had to punt on that to get it released in time. The cost was they had to upgrade the hardware platform to 2GB. At that point, the original "it will work no problem on the PlayBook with 1GB" plan became "we still think we can get it to run okay with 1GB but it will take time".

1. How do you know this?

2. Can you elaborate on the point above?

Posted via CB10

[Kris Simundson]

1. How do you know this?

2. Can you elaborate on the point above?

Posted via CB10

By the fact the Dev Alpha A and B had 1 GB of RAM?

[victorshikhman]

Whatever this thread once was, it's now become a forum for Playbook owners to vent their frustration and resentment for being unceremoniously duped by a company they trusted and supported. Yeah, this decision isn't going to cost BB anything in credibility and customer loyalty.

Guys, relax. Thorsten Heins said he is really sorry. That fixes everything. Now line up behind BB and be sure to tell your Android and iOS friends that BBM is coming to them soon! You remember BBM, right? The messaging service which Blackberry simply refused to port to Playbook in more than 2 years.

But I get it, Thorsten made the hardest, most difficult, most tear-jerking decision of his professional life. Naturally he announced that decision after selling off some 350,000 Playbook units in the last 2 quarters, not before. Anyway, Playbook probably doesn't have enough RAM to run BBM properly, but I'm willing to bet my 2 year old ipod touch will.

Updating Playbook's AdobeAir/Flash/Android runtimes to make the platform viable for another two years would cost BB almost nothing. Finally giving us access to USB-To-Go would cost BB literally nothing - it's already coded in. They only blocked USB storage access to help sell the 32GB and 64GB units, but that's over now. Porting BBM would be a piece of cake. These are just a sampling of the solid dozen little improvements that could be made to the Playbook to satisfy the hundreds of thousands of PB owners, fans who supported the company during its darkest times. These improvements would cost BB almost nothing. Yet, they won't even lift a finger. What does that say about their regard for their customers?

Finally, "I'm sorry" fixes nothing. It's what a child says when they go in their pants. This is a multi-billion dollar company with $3.1 Billion in the bank. Keep your "sorry" and give me half the Playbook you promised!

I'm not bitter, I'm quite sweet if you get to know me. But this Playbook nonsense is off the wall insulting, and everyone defending it is a masochist. I used to tell Storm owners to "get over it", and quite a few of you joined me. Look where that's gotten us.

[RubberChicken76]

By the fact the Dev Alpha A and B had 1 GB of RAM?

No... what caused the need to jump up that he refers to

Posted via CB10

[web99]

Noticed yesterday that Alec Saunders had tweeted/plugged a BlackBerry app that basically allows owners to nag developers to develop for BB10.

I thought this smacked a bit of desperation, and found it a little surprising that BlackBerry were leaning on their existing userbase to help them, especially where they'd recently annoyed half of them with their treatment of PlayBook owners.

Anyway, I Tweeted him back and suggested that '3 million vocal BB10 users are still only 3m BB10 users', while the only way to get the big developers on board would be to give them major, major incentives to do so.

He responded that they know, but some developers need to hear from 'folks other than us as well'.

Make of this what you will, but do you think BlackBerry are really getting the point? Most big devs aren't currently onboard. It's up to BlackBerry to change their minds, not us.

Posted via CB10

Here is an idea. As VP of Developer relations, why doesn't Mr Saunders get on a plane and visit the developers of the top downloaded apps that are not yet on BB10 and speak to them face to face? Why is he expecting us to do his job for him?

One of the things that he should be doing with the backing of BlackBerry is to be offering a program to heavily subsidize the development and maintenance of the big named apps on the BB10 platform. If BB10 has a lot more big-named apps, it will give people looking for a new smartphone one less reason not to choose a BB10 phone.


Posted via CB10 from my spectacular Z10

[Toodeurep]

No... what caused the need to jump up that he refers to

Posted via CB10

I evaluated like this, the cost and time it took to make BB10 perform on 1GB of RAM was far longer than the cost and time it took to change the hardware to 2GB of RAM. Probably more time than cost but those two are almost inseparable in product development.

[RubberChicken76]

Here is an idea. As VP of Developer relations, why doesn't Mr Saunders get on a plane and visit the developers of the top downloaded apps that are not yet on BB10 and speak to them face to face?

Meet the man who would make BlackBerry apps cool | Mobile - CNET News

"n 48 out of the last 52 weeks, he has been on a plane circling the globe in an effort to drum up interest in every corner."

[RubberChicken76]

I evaluated like this, the cost and time it took to make BB10 perform on 1GB of RAM was far longer than the cost and time it took to change the hardware to 2GB of RAM. Probably more time than cost but those two are almost inseparable in product development.

I interpreted it as that as well, but also thought there may have been a surprise technical issue in the middle.

[anon(3310921)]

I don't see this issue with a consumer letting a developer know they would like them to support their platform of choice. . .will it help? I don't know . . .does it hurt to try? Not at all. . .let Alec do what he feels he should and I will do what little I can. . .what happens happens. . .just let 'em know you want support. . .why not?

[app_Developer]

The issue isn't 1GB or 2GB or 4GB of RAM. As some of us were saying last year, the issue is that phones can't swap. The grade of flash used in these devices can't handle swapping pages to it. You could put 8GB of RAM in these things, and they still can't swap, so you will always run out relatively quickly.

And so, because of this, the Android team and the iOS team came up with memory mgmt and task mgmt solutions which are layered on top of linux and mach. I just downloaded the latest BB10 SDK, and I still don't see that BB has figured this out yet. Until they solve that issue -- and yes, I understand QNX apologists would rather die than admit this issue -- BB10 will always be chasing its tail on this RAM issue. As they add more features, and more sophisticated apps, and users multitask more apps, we'll eventually find that 2GB isn't enough either and they start having to ship phones with 4GB and so on.

Even Palm figured this issue out back in the mid 90s. Android came up with a fine implementation of this finally in ICS. And Apple had this working very nicely in the very first public iOS, which is why it was able to run in 1/8 of a GB.

[RubberChicken76]

The issue isn't 1GB or 2GB or 4GB of RAM. As some of us were saying last year, the issue is that phones can't swap.

If this is the case, it must be a function of time vs. cost incentive to do. One would thing that the cost savings of halving the RAM ammortized over - say - 30 million devices (which BlackBerry even at current states would do in 12-18 months) would more than justify the R&D costs of better memory management.

[app_Developer]

If this is the case, it must be a function of time vs. cost incentive to do. One would thing that the cost savings of halving the RAM ammortized over - say - 30 million devices (which BlackBerry even at current states would do in 12-18 months) would more than justify the R&D costs of better memory management.

Oh, they have to solve this problem, otherwise they will have to put silly amounts of RAM in these things. Imagine when users finally do have instagram and vine and then a bunch of games that they're switching in and out of. The way BB10 works now with respect to task and memory mgmt, even 4GB won't be enough. Doubling the minimum specified RAM from 1GB to 2GB really only sidesteps the issue temporarily.

The next big controversy will then be that they will have to drop support for the current Z10 and Q10 because the minimum RAM requirements swells to 4GB.

[anon(4044683)]

@RubberChicken76, So well written!

@ Kris, BB10 is optimized to run on 2GB + RAM? Oh Dear!!! a clear mistake. iPad2 runs on 512 MB RAM, and no iPad2 is not laggy! Just open HUB in Z10 and switch between tabs watch carefully the transition animation, it still STUTTERS! So make the minimum RAM to 4GB + for BB11.

I have a problem with this line of thinking even if you're probably perfectly correct.

When BlackBerry 10 was started, there was a grand total of one QNX device in the market ... PlayBook WiFi (with 1 GB). As BlackBerry 10 was still in development, a second QNX device hit the market ... PlayBook LTE. Both had 1 GB of RAM.

So it means either one of two things:

1. RIM never had any intention whatsoever of bringing BlackBerry 10 to 1 GB devices at all.

or

2. The engineering teams missed a requirement up front to architect the OS so that it could run on 1 GB and 2 GB devices, turning a little project (reworking the UI for the form factor) into a massive project (huge refactoring effort) too expensive to do.

I think its complete horse**** to assume it's technically impossible to get BlackBerry 10 to run well on the PlayBook. I've seen too many awesome engineers do too many awesome refactorings to make the impossible possible.

I 100% believe the problem is that they didn't do anything more than pay the 1 GB devices lip service up front in the design phase ("we'll worry about it later") and then realized after the fact that it was going to be a colossal effort for minimal returns.

[anon(4044683)]

You nailed it! Hope the defenders here understand what you mean!

The issue isn't 1GB or 2GB or 4GB of RAM. As some of us were saying last year, the issue is that phones can't swap. The grade of flash used in these devices can't handle swapping pages to it. You could put 8GB of RAM in these things, and they still can't swap, so you will always run out relatively quickly.

And so, because of this, the Android team and the iOS team came up with memory mgmt and task mgmt solutions which are layered on top of linux and mach. I just downloaded the latest BB10 SDK, and I still don't see that BB has figured this out yet. Until they solve that issue -- and yes, I understand QNX apologists would rather die than admit this issue -- BB10 will always be chasing its tail on this RAM issue. As they add more features, and more sophisticated apps, and users multitask more apps, we'll eventually find that 2GB isn't enough either and they start having to ship phones with 4GB and so on.

Even Palm figured this issue out back in the mid 90s. Android came up with a fine implementation of this finally in ICS. And Apple had this working very nicely in the very first public iOS, which is why it was able to run in 1/8 of a GB.

[Gnomesane]

@RubberChicken76, So well written!

@ Kris, BB10 is optimized to run on 2GB + RAM? Oh Dear!!! a clear mistake. iPad2 runs on 512 MB RAM, and no iPad2 is not laggy! Just open HUB in Z10 and switch between tabs watch carefully the transition animation, it still STUTTERS! So make the minimum RAM to 4GB + for BB11.

Sorry, what are you talking about?

Hub to apps? There's no stutter, not here.

Posted via CB10

[mikeo007]

Oh, they have to solve this problem, otherwise they will have to put silly amounts of RAM in these things. Imagine when users finally do have instagram and vine and then a bunch of games that they're switching in and out of. The way BB10 works now with respect to task and memory mgmt, even 4GB won't be enough. Doubling the minimum specified RAM from 1GB to 2GB really only sidesteps the issue temporarily.

The next big controversy will then be that they will have to drop support for the current Z10 and Q10 because the minimum RAM requirements swells to 4GB.

Well put, both of your comments. 4GB and beyond is going to open up a whole host of other problems as well since the ARM chips that are currently in use are 32-bit chips, and therefor not easily able to address 4GB of memory and beyond.

[anon(4044683)]

Open hub slide right to reveal the context menus, now try to jump between menus and notice the slide transition animation on the right side it stutters a bit. I am not saying its laggy but it stutters.

Sorry, what are you talking about?

Hub to apps? There's no stutter, not here.

Posted via CB10

[djenkins6]

I don't think the top apps matter, the apps that matter are all the niche apps for the different groups of people which adds up to a lot of people. Eg there have been a number of medical students asking for particular apps on the forums and having to go to android or apple to get them. Now extend that to every profession looking for their 3 or 4 apps and that's the real problem blackberry has with apps.

Posted via CB10

[Gnomesane]

Open hub slide right to reveal the context menus, now try to jump between menus and notice the slide transition animation on the right side it stutters a bit. I am not saying its laggy but it stutters.

No stutter here, Rogers Canada, 10.1...

Anyway, seriously? How long is the stutter issue for you? Does it impact on your use of the phone?

This is a new one on me, I guess we needed something to complain about now that the random reboot issue has been solved.

Posted via CB10