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  1. Mister-E's Avatar
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    Default Has BlackBerry already won the third place market share battle?

    The battle is already over between BlackBerry and Microsoft for third place in the smartphone market. Windows 8 for PC's has been getting a lot of negative publicity over its new GUI, and that is going to carry over to the Windows 8 phone, especially since they both look exactly the same. There is also bad will over the issue that Windows Phone 7/7.5 is not upgradable to Windows 8. This may influence some consumers purchase decision as they may have some doubt if Windows Phone 8 will be upgradable to Windows Phone 9. Of course BlackBerry has its share of bad will and their is concern if the company can survive. However BB 10 is a totally new operating system that addresses all the shortcomings that BlackBerry had with their old devices and the Z10 has been received positively in the markets it has already been released in. Furthermore, BB 10 is a modern OS, and features such as the Hub, the virtual keyboard and the time-shift camera, are features that sets themselves apart from the competition.
  2. dbmalloy's Avatar
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    It is great to have enthusiasm like the OP but a some point reality has to creep in.... I do not actually disagree with the OP position... however having the best of anytihing does not equate to sales.... Many look to the solid launch as an indicator of things to come .... this however is not really the case... for BB to be successful they will have to get consistant sales over the next number of quarters..... this is going to be their challenge... with the impending arrival of new devices from Samsung, HTC, LG, WP8 and later this spring Apple.... BB does run the risk of getting lost in the shuffle so to speak....
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  3. Mister-E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbmalloy View Post
    It is great to have enthusiasm like the OP but a some point reality has to creep in.... I do not actually disagree with the OP position... however having the best of anytihing does not equate to sales.... Many look to the solid launch as an indicator of things to come .... this however is not really the case... for BB to be successful they will have to get consistant sales over the next number of quarters..... this is going to be their challenge... with the impending arrival of new devices from Samsung, HTC, LG, WP8 and later this spring Apple.... BB does run the risk of getting lost in the shuffle so to speak....
    Let's not get confused here, this is for the battle for third place not first or second. The main point I am trying to make is that the Microsoft Windows 8 GUI is the main reason why Windows Phone 8 is going to fail at winning the third spot for OS market share.
  4. darkehawke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister-E View Post
    Let's not get confused here, this is for the battle for third place not first or second. The main point I am trying to make is that the Microsoft Windows 8 GUI is the main reason why Windows Phone 8 is going to fail at winning the third spot for OS market share.
    Thats purely your opinion, not fact.
    I'd say the battle is far from over
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    Misleading title is misleading
    So i guess there is not way to hack the internet?
  6. Thunderbuck's Avatar

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    While I'm 100% in agreement with the OP's assumptions (I've also remarked that backlash against Win8 could wind up affecting WP), we need a lot more evidence--and time--before we can declare that this is actually the case.

    The Z10 isn't even available in the US yet; saying BB has "already won" the battle for third is every bit as premature as saying BB10 is "too little, too late".
    “Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.”

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  7. raysgrumpy's Avatar
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    Default re: Has BlackBerry already won the third place market share battle?

    You do realize that the Windows 8 ui is meant for mobile and touch and is why some don't like it on a desk top? Your other point was that Windows phone 7/7.5 isn't upgradable to 8 is rather ironic since no blackberry os's are upgradable to BB10
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  8. Mister-E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkehawke View Post
    Thats purely your opinion, not fact.
    I'd say the battle is far from over
    It is my opinion, but it is also a fact that the Windows 8 PC GUI has not been received well, and the Windows Phone 8 GUI is identical.
  9. Charles Martin1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbmalloy View Post
    It is great to have enthusiasm like the OP but a some point reality has to creep in.... I do not actually disagree with the OP position... however having the best of anytihing does not equate to sales.... Many look to the solid launch as an indicator of things to come .... this however is not really the case... for BB to be successful they will have to get consistant sales over the next number of quarters..... this is going to be their challenge... with the impending arrival of new devices from Samsung, HTC, LG, WP8 and later this spring Apple.... BB does run the risk of getting lost in the shuffle so to speak....

    Yes and competition has done it's best to stifle US entry. That's business...dirty stuff.
  10. raysgrumpy's Avatar
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    Default re: Has BlackBerry already won the third place market share battle?

    Windows 8 hasn't been received well because it is a drastic change to the desktop people have known for years. It is perfectly suited for a phone or tablet.
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  11. Mister-E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raysgrumpy View Post
    You do realize that the Windows 8 ui is meant for mobile and touch and is why some don't like it on a desk top? Your other point was that Windows phone 7/7.5 isn't upgradable to 8 is rather ironic since no blackberry os's are upgradable to BB10
    I do understand that Windows 8 ui is meant for mobile and touch. As for the upgrading old BlackBerry's, they were last released I believe in November 2011. These were a band-aid as it was taking longer to develop the new OS and there had not been any new hardware for a while. Consumers knew that RIM was creating a brand new OS and there was no guarantee that these devices would be upgradable.
  12. Mister-E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderbuck View Post
    While I'm 100% in agreement with the OP's assumptions (I've also remarked that backlash against Win8 could wind up affecting WP), we need a lot more evidence--and time--before we can declare that this is actually the case.

    The Z10 isn't even available in the US yet; saying BB has "already won" the battle for third is every bit as premature as saying BB10 is "too little, too late".
    I hate "too little, too late". It is so irritating. As for my comment being premature, perhaps. I am concerned that the slow entry to the US market may diminish the excitement over BB 10. Marketing has been very strong for the Z10 which may negate this, however I have no idea how well Windows Phone 8 is being marketed in the US.
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    Quote Originally Posted by raysgrumpy View Post
    You do realize that the Windows 8 ui is meant for mobile and touch and is why some don't like it on a desk top? Your other point was that Windows phone 7/7.5 isn't upgradable to 8 is rather ironic since no blackberry os's are upgradable to BB10
    The difference between OS7's inability to upgrade to BB10 and WP 7/7.5 is that in the case of Windows Phone, the inability to upgrade wasn't announced until the phones had been on sale for some time, and many people actually bought on the assumption they'd be able to upgrade. BlackBerry was always EXTREMELY clear that old-school BBOS would never be upgradable.
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  14. RubberChicken76's Avatar
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    This depends on how you define the battle.

    If you're asking which has more mobile users? It's BlackBerry without question. They probably have 4 times as many active users as Microsoft does on Windows Phone right now. But ... it's the old, not-being-continued OS.

    BlackBerry 7 is being replaced and BlackBerry 10 is just getting out the door. Windows Phone has a head start on the next operating systems.

    So - we'll see. Could go either direction in my eyes.
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  15. Thunderbuck's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister-E View Post
    I hate "too little, too late". It is so irritating. As for my comment being premature, perhaps. I am concerned that the slow entry to the US market may diminish the excitement over BB 10. Marketing has been very strong for the Z10 which may negate this, however I have no idea how well Windows Phone 8 is being marketed in the US.
    At some point you are going to have to concede that "it is what it is". Personally, I think BB10 has an excellent chance in the US market. They're not going to pull off 20% market share overnight, but BB doesn't actually have to. They can stay viable with much less.

    I basically agree with your idea that BB10 will outsell WP, but I don't pretend that this is anything more than an educated guess at this point. We don't even know for sure that the initial sales spurt in the current markets is sustainable. Again, I think the Z10 will have "legs", because it's got at least two features that I think will appeal to a lot of people (the Active Frames app management and the keyboard), but I don't have a crystal ball that will tell me how valid those assumptions are.
    “Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.”

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  16. Vorkosigan's Avatar
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    I can already see blackberry being more popular than windows phone for some of the reasons given here - and the fact that windows 8 is a better experience on a phone or tablet will really be beside the point if a person's first exposure to it is through their desktop and they don't like it.

    I deal everyday with real estate agents who aren't necessarily tech savvy but they need their tech to work. BB is the big seller with iphone's gaining in popularity and a few androids. I know of several who have gotten windows 8 on their computers and many of those hate it. I don't know of one that has a windows phone - there may be some out there - i just haven't seen any. And as I usually end up doing the trouble shooting for most of the tech in the 2 offices I work in I usually get to see what everyone is carrying.
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  17. richardat's Avatar
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    OP, do you feel better just saying this? Welcome to months ago by the way! LOL

    I dream of the day our society is rid of the blight MS is. I dream of where we could be had they not held back the tech field the last couple decades...but just saying it doesn't make it so.

    MS makes - and has always made - awful, 3rd rate, products, so I'm not optimistic on their future in general. However, they have a lot of resources, and the PC market, can sustain them for quite some time, even if it's not the golden cow it once was. I doubt winphone will do very well in the next generation or two (ironically, it's one of the best products they've ever managed to cobble together!), but they don't need it. Fact is....I expect they will outlast BB and become #3 by default anyways.

    In the short term, it's hard to say. Before the launch, I would have said NO WAY to MS beating BB in sales. I thought winphone would flop in sales, but I also thought RIM would get a brief, large, sales burst from BB10. I think now, the burst is a lot smaller than I thought it would be...and with winphone surpassing BB in marketshare, maybe they can make a battle of it this year. I would still tend to expect BB to beat them handily this year though.

    The problem for BB is...that doesn't mean much. It's like saying, our restaurant is getting killed by the big restaurants, and we're struggling to survive, but Gordon Ramsay renovated, and maybe we have a chance for new success....in any case, we're still beating Bill's restaurant over there by a little bit! Except the problem is that Bill is a rich retiree from his ill-gotten criminal activities, and he can run that restaurant at a loss all day long....

    ....and most Kitchen Nightmare restaurants end up going out of business anyways....
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  18. Mister-E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by richardat View Post
    OP, do you feel better just saying this? Welcome to months ago by the way! LOL

    I dream of the day our society is rid of the blight MS is. I dream of where we could be had they not held back the tech field the last couple decades...but just saying it doesn't make it so.

    MS makes - and has always made - awful, 3rd rate, products, so I'm not optimistic on their future in general. However, they have a lot of resources, and the PC market, can sustain them for quite some time, even if it's not the golden cow it once was. I doubt winphone will do very well in the next generation or two (ironically, it's one of the best products they've ever managed to cobble together!), but they don't need it. Fact is....I expect they will outlast BB and become #3 by default anyways.

    In the short term, it's hard to say. Before the launch, I would have said NO WAY to MS beating BB in sales. I thought winphone would flop in sales, but I also thought RIM would get a brief, large, sales burst from BB10. I think now, the burst is a lot smaller than I thought it would be...and with winphone surpassing BB in marketshare, maybe they can make a battle of it this year. I would still tend to expect BB to beat them handily this year though.

    The problem for BB is...that doesn't mean much. It's like saying, our restaurant is getting killed by the big restaurants, and we're struggling to survive, but Gordon Ramsay renovated, and maybe we have a chance for new success....in any case, we're still beating Bill's restaurant over there by a little bit! Except the problem is that Bill is a rich retiree from his ill-gotten criminal activities, and he can run that restaurant at a loss all day long....

    ....and most Kitchen Nightmare restaurants end up going out of business anyways....
    Regarding your Kitchen Nightmares analogy, BB 10 is like bulldozing the restaurant and building a brand new one offering well prepared food that customers want and getting over managements dysfunctional issues. I really do think they have won the battle, for at least a year or two, but this is a war that never ends.

    Microsoft does have deep pockets. I do agree with their strategy to have all devices with a common UI, as mobile technology is merging with traditional computing. I think this something that Apple is trying to do as well. I also think Microsoft has the potential to do much better than third place in the future by leveraging the X-Box with their mobile devices. Could we possibly see an X-Phone? That name is probably copyrighted by someone else. Surface Phone?

    My concern with BlackBerry is that they may spend the next three years just fine tuning BB 10 instead of trying to innovate the platform further.
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    "It is Done" -heins 2:31
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  20. G-bone's Avatar
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    BlackBerry is already 3rd place, so it is theirs to lose.
    I'm not seeing any indication that they will.


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  21. bekkay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister-E View Post
    Windows 8 for PC's has been getting a lot of negative publicity over its new GUI, and that is going to carry over to the Windows 8 phone, especially since they both look exactly the same.
    You are confusing negative publicity among desktop users, which was in fact related to MS making the UI more touch-centric. So, I am not sure how that negative publicity against overly touch-oriented UI will carry over to owners of touch-controlled deices.

    Besides, instead of doing this armchair theorizing, I invite the OP to see how that bad publicity manifested itself in sales figures

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister-E View Post
    There is also bad will over the issue that Windows Phone 7/7.5 is not upgradable to Windows 8. This may influence some consumers purchase decision as they may have some doubt if Windows Phone 8 will be upgradable to Windows Phone 9.
    There is also bad will over the issue that Blackberry 7 is not upgradable to Blackberry 10. This may influence some consumers purchase decision as they may have some doubt if Blackberry 10 will be upgradable to BLackBerry 11.
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkehawke View Post
    Thats purely your opinion, not fact.
    I'd say the battle is far from over

    As of now, MS is almost dead in Canada, from what some salespeople have told me.
  23. RubberChicken76's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-bone View Post
    BlackBerry is already 3rd place, so it is theirs to lose.
    BlackBerry 4.2.2-7 is in third place. BlackBerry 10 is not. They have a great shot, but it's not cut and dry yet. If they get a bunch of BB users upgrading rapidly, Microsoft may start sweating.
  24. Mister-E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekkay View Post
    You are confusing negative publicity among desktop users, which was in fact related to MS making the UI more touch-centric. So, I am not sure how that negative publicity against overly touch-oriented UI will carry over to owners of touch-controlled deices.

    Besides, instead of doing this armchair theorizing, I invite the OP to see how that bad publicity manifested itself in sales figures



    There is also bad will over the issue that Blackberry 7 is not upgradable to Blackberry 10. This may influence some consumers purchase decision as they may have some doubt if Blackberry 10 will be upgradable to BLackBerry 11.
    Someone else asked this, to whom I replied. Check the rest of the comments in this thread and you will get your answer to your comments.
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    Default re: Has BlackBerry already won the third place market share battle?

    Windows Phone sales are up 150% in the forth quarter of 2012. People do like the Phone OS, that's what Windows 8 is designed for. I have a HTC 8x on Verizon, and come from 8 years with Blackberries. I will never look back. Waited 2 years for a Netflix app on my playbook, I'm not waiting another 2 for a Netflix app on a BB10. Windows Phone 8 also have all the apps I used on my iPhone lacking Flipboard. But there are very good alternatives. Not to mention Xbox integration's. So I wouldn't be to quick to jump to that conclusion yet. BB10 isn't available in the US yet, but without the main apps its going nowhere in the US.
    Sent from my HTC6990LVW using Board Express
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