1. mikeo007's Avatar
    A lot of folks, myself included, have written operating systems -- either in college as part of a course or on our own for fun. I suspect that there are many users on this board who have done the same.

    You're being very foolish. I've seen nothing from NFLPLAYBOOK that would indicate that he doesn't understand what an operating system or kernel is. (Though I've seen nothing from you to indicate that you have an understanding. If you want to play pedantic games, I can call you names, question your parentage, and cast doubt on your ability to function independently over statements made in the interest of clarity to a lay audience or minor, irrelevant, technical points. I don't see how this would benefit either one of us or the rest of the readership, but it appears that it's precisely what you and your crew seem to want.)

    What I've seen from you, however, is a lot of unfounded speculation about the differences between RIM's tablet OS and BB10. You seem to be under the impression that they're completely unrelated. All the evidence we have indicates that they're very closely related -- identical in nearly every respect.

    Which is the point that you and a few nameless others have purposefully misunderstood. BB10 is not an unknown, not untested, and not unproven. It's an update to a tested and proven OS that happens to include a name change. No one said that it was FIPS certified, only that it is very likely to achieve FIPS certification given its history. (In logic we call that 'induction'. You'll find that science is based on that same principle.)

    I know that you're not talking about FIPS -- but everyone else is.
    Cool, I went to school too. Make whatever assumptions you want, but you have no proof to support the position that BB10 is Playbook OS. But here's a question: do you consider windows 7 and windows 8 different operating systems? What about something like Ubuntu 11.04 vs 11.10? OS X 10.7 vs 10.8? What arbitrary device are you using to measure what counts as enough change to consider an OS different from it's predecessor?
    richardat and Roo Zilla like this.
    11-02-12 12:43 PM
  2. westcoastit's Avatar
    What that they are interconnected and work together. Is that the simple answer you want? What does that have to do with the fact that there's no proof that BB10 is in fact a different OS then used on the PlayBook. And where if any changes are made to the OS that FIPS certification is needed again. Is it needed when the OS goes from version 2.0 to 2.1? Please enlighten us on what changes an OS to a new different OS.
    It wasn't Mike that asked you the question and I explicitly stated I didn't want a simple answer because I didn't want you to go haring off to Wikipedia and regurgitate a quick summary. You replied by literally linking to Wikipedia articles, priceless.
    richardat and mikeo007 like this.
    11-02-12 12:44 PM
  3. richardat's Avatar
    A lot of folks, myself included, have written operating systems -- either in college as part of a course or on our own for fun. I suspect that there are many users on this board who have done the same.

    You're being very foolish. I've seen nothing from NFLPLAYBOOK that would indicate that he doesn't understand what an operating system or kernel is. (Though I've seen nothing from you to indicate that you have an understanding. If you want to play pedantic games, is.
    I don't think they're playing pedantic games...I think Mike and WestCoast want to know exactly what nflplaybook was claiming with some of his vague statements. That's completely fair, and in fact, thoughtful. A lot better than just spewing rhetoric. If anybody wants to make real progress on a point, like for example: different OS or the same?? You've got to get very specific about your definitions, and show that your opinion is informed, and thought out.
    mikeo007 and CrackedBarry like this.
    11-02-12 12:51 PM
  4. recompile's Avatar
    Make whatever assumptions you want, but you have no proof to support the position that BB10 is Playbook OS.
    Nonsense. All the evidence we have available indicates that. There is nothing to suggest that they're different in any fundamental way or are otherwise unrelated to one another.

    But here's a question: do you consider windows 7 and windows 8 different operating systems? What about something like Ubuntu 11.04 vs 11.10? OS X 10.7 vs 10.8? What arbitrary device are you using to measure what counts as enough change to consider an OS different from it's predecessor?
    Now you're playing games. Very obviously playing games, I might add. If you're not interested in legitimate discussion, why are you here?

    Now, there is a question as to when an OS needs to seek FIPS certification. Is it required for every update, only major version updates, or only on changes related to cryptography? I don't know, but I suspect the answer to that question has a clear and objective answer -- it's not something that we can argue about.
    kbz1960 likes this.
    11-02-12 01:04 PM
  5. NFLPLAYBOOK's Avatar
    I don't think they're playing pedantic games...I think Mike and WestCoast want to know exactly what nflplaybook was claiming with some of his vague statements. That's completely fair, and in fact, thoughtful. A lot better than just spewing rhetoric. If anybody wants to make real progress on a point, like for example: different OS or the same?? You've got to get very specific about your definitions, and show that your opinion is informed, and thought out.
    Or you can stick with the real issues.
    Fact the PlayBook is FIPS certified.
    Fact BB10 is based off the same QNX software as the PlayBook.
    Fact no one can prove that there is a difference between the QNX OSs on both, or if there is, whether it would make a difference for FIPS certification.
    11-02-12 01:07 PM
  6. qbnkelt's Avatar
    Govt Agencies leaving Blackberry,...for iPhone and Android!  Oh my!-mouthshut.jpg

    Sent from my iPhone 4S using Tapatalk
    hpjrt likes this.
    11-02-12 01:09 PM
  7. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    Or you can stick with the real issues.
    Fact the PlayBook is FIPS certified.
    Fact BB10 is based off the same QNX software as the PlayBook.
    Fact no one can prove that there is a difference between the QNX OSs on both, or if there is, whether it would make a difference for FIPS certification.
    Is BB10 FIPS certified?
    richardat likes this.
    11-02-12 01:58 PM
  8. kraski's Avatar
    Nonsense. All the evidence we have available indicates that. There is nothing to suggest that they're different in any fundamental way or are otherwise unrelated to one another.
    All I know is that people at RIM have said publicly, even in statements published on Crackberry, that there were enough changes from QNX to make them consider BB10 a different OS. Which would be good reason, if the final OS isn't etched in stone, to have to wait for certification. And, yes, there sometimes needs to be recertification if upgrades are sufficiently different. What the exact parameters are is beyond me. I used to be involved more in hardware than software.
    richardat likes this.
    11-02-12 02:26 PM
  9. NFLPLAYBOOK's Avatar
    All I know is that people at RIM have said publicly, even in statements published on Crackberry, that there were enough changes from QNX to make them consider BB10 a different OS. Which would be good reason, if the final OS isn't etched in stone, to have to wait for certification. And, yes, there sometimes needs to be recertification if upgrades are sufficiently different. What the exact parameters are is beyond me. I used to be involved more in hardware than software.
    That's a very good point.
    11-02-12 03:09 PM
  10. NFLPLAYBOOK's Avatar
    Is BB10 FIPS certified?
    At this point I think the only one who knows is RIM. I guess we'll find out when they are ready to let us know.
    11-02-12 03:15 PM
  11. RubberChicken76's Avatar
    I say we all just state that BB10 is FIPS certified. There. Now it is.
    Or better yet ... that the chances of it being FIPS certified quite quickly are very good given:

    - The history of RIM and security
    - The history of QNX and security
    - The fact that the PlayBook is
    - the fact that RIM has been working with governments for years on security issue.
    11-02-12 04:40 PM
  12. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    Is BB10 FIPS certified?
    I don't believe they can even start the certification process until they have a "gold" release candidate. Maybe not even until general availability.
    richardat and Tre Lawrence like this.
    11-02-12 04:45 PM
  13. richardat's Avatar
    Or you can stick with the real issues.
    Fact the PlayBook is FIPS certified.
    Fact BB10 is based off the same QNX software as the PlayBook.
    Fact no one can prove that there is a difference between the QNX OSs on both, or if there is, whether it would make a difference for FIPS certification.
    Right.
    Right.
    WHA??!! Well...every indication....from terminology used, to development time, would indicate a "different" OS (again... we still haven't defined "different" rigorously). HOWEVER, more important, in the context of the original claim: that we can ASSUME certification, one should not be asking for proof that they are NOT the same, one needs to prove they are the SAME.

    There is little reason to take a default position of "they are the same", when they are clearly said to be "BASED" on a common ancestry, are differently named, developed at different times, and on two very different devices The opposite strong position would be: they ARE different, and the weak position would be: it is unclear if they are different; either of these two are more rational default positions, and neither is conducive to assuming certification!

    Side note: as many others have pointed out, not assuming certification, is NOT the same as believing it won't be certified at some point. Obviously, most of us think that given: 1.Rim's emphasis on security, and 2.QNX's history, that it will be certified. However, until that happens, it would be absolutely irresponsible for the government to simply assume it, and even worse, make plans (or take actions) based on such an assumption, if in so doing, their are negative repercussions.
    mikeo007 likes this.
    11-02-12 05:57 PM
  14. soren203's Avatar
    Imagine that,..RIM's Blackberry has kept agencies around the world connected and intact for many years with its secure software and infrastructure! But now,...but now folks want to dump Blackberries for what I see as unproven devices.
    JMD
    I stopped reading after that, "from what you see as unproven devices"...who are you exactly? Trust me the US government wouldn't be switching unless they were sure that there secrets are safe.
    11-02-12 08:12 PM
  15. kbz1960's Avatar
    I stopped reading after that, "from what you see as unproven devices"...who are you exactly? Trust me the US government wouldn't be switching unless they were sure that there secrets are safe.
    Or they are only switching for those who don't carry any secrets.
    RubberChicken76 and recompile like this.
    11-02-12 08:24 PM
  16. Roo Zilla's Avatar
    It seems the bulk of the security fears would be alleviated if iPhone and Android were to receive the FIPS 140-2 certification. Since it's assumed that devices issued by gov will be managed, then it doesn't seem to be a big deal, since managed devices can be made FIPS 140-2 compliant. Here's an excerpt from Good Tech:

    "Military-Grade End-to-End Security
    Good for Government leverages Good’s container-based methodology to secure and manage sensitive data and prevent it from being leaked to other non-secure applications. The solution protects proprietary government data in-transit and at rest on the device using a FIPS 140-2 validated cryptographic module that utilizes AES encryption. Good for Government for iOS supports S/MIME and seamlessly integrates with National Security Agency (NSA) – approved Bluetooth Smartcard readers and the DoD Global Directory Services (GDS) and Public Key Environment (PKE). The solution offers administrators the ability to implement role-based security, data loss prevention and compliance policies to provide complete end-to-end protection of For Official Use Only (FOUO) and Sensitive But Unclassified (SBU) government information."

    Good Technology Brings Military Grade Security to iOS Devices for U.S. Department of Defense with Update to Good for Government
    11-02-12 09:01 PM
  17. OMGBB10's Avatar
    I've been following CB since a long time but this thread really made me sign up!

    I would like to add 2 things:

    1. As per FIPS certificate - Any product using the mentioned certified cryptographic module/kernel/library can be labelled as FIPS 140-2 compliant as long as the same validated version is being used in the product's life-cycle. Since we all know that BB OS Java based and PlayBook OS QNX based, both have been FIPS certified hence BB10 may already be FIPS 140-2 compliant. Only reason for BB10 to not be FIPS compliant would be if they are using an updated version of the BlackBerry Cryptographic Kernel/Library/Module which would require them to re-certify the status. This would only mean even higher security levels. Secondly, Certicom is a subsidiary of RIM which specializes in cryptography - quote

    With a pre-approved FIPS 140-2 Validated level 1 cryptographic module from Certicom, you can build government approved client and server side applications without having to go through the lengthy and costly FIPS approval process.
    So clearly BB10 is not FIPS 140-2 certified BUT it is definitely FIPS 140-2 compliant since you can search BB10 native SDK dev site and see support for BlackBerry OS Cryptographic Kernel which I believe was used in BB PlayBook for FIPS certification.

    2. I believe BB10 is just an upgraded version of the PlayBook OS. The perfect example here would be to take from Windows development. The original plan was Windows XP - Next major update Windows 7 - But to fill in the long gap - Windows Vista was used. Same way - The old OS for RIM is the Java based BB OS which sees it's key major update to BB10, however to fill in the gap - the PlayBook OS is being used. PlayBook OS and BB10 are both based on QNX Neutrino OS with added layers of BlackBerry security. The BB10 OS is refined, corrected, added with features and optimized version of the PB OS. Majority of the PB OS architecture has been followed through to BB10. Key would be procnto - QNX Neutrino microkernel and process manager utilized in both BB10 and PB OS.

    There are some really foolish and personal arguments in this thread..

    1. Questioning the security status of BlackBerry, the owners of QNX and Certicom lol

    2. Stating that PlayBook OS differs from BB10 OS. So RIM made a new OS after making a new OS? Don't you think that would be some bigger news than RIM not launching native PIM?

    PS - Why is this one particular group fighting on every thread when they clearly don't have a point? They are using CrackBerry as a moral policing ground on correcting every word (literally every word). Guys you need to chill out. Not every poster is a professional tech blog writer, and they might mean something different. But constantly asking them to prove themselves right, means adding more incorrect posts to the thread. If you spot something wrong, you can correct it yourself. But I highly doubt that's the intention. Besides, I agree with all the 'stupid posts' and 'idiots' because they collectively make more sense than the really sorry attitude you few have brought in.
    11-03-12 08:04 AM
  18. kbz1960's Avatar
    I've been following CB since a long time but this thread really made me sign up!

    I would like to add 2 things:

    1. As per FIPS certificate - Any product using the mentioned certified cryptographic module/kernel/library can be labelled as FIPS 140-2 compliant as long as the same validated version is being used in the product's life-cycle. Since we all know that BB OS Java based and PlayBook OS QNX based, both have been FIPS certified hence BB10 may already be FIPS 140-2 compliant. Only reason for BB10 to not be FIPS compliant would be if they are using an updated version of the BlackBerry Cryptographic Kernel/Library/Module which would require them to re-certify the status. This would only mean even higher security levels. Secondly, Certicom is a subsidiary of RIM which specializes in cryptography - quote



    So clearly BB10 is not FIPS 140-2 certified BUT it is definitely FIPS 140-2 compliant since you can search BB10 native SDK dev site and see support for BlackBerry OS Cryptographic Kernel which I believe was used in BB PlayBook for FIPS certification.

    2. I believe BB10 is just an upgraded version of the PlayBook OS. The perfect example here would be to take from Windows development. The original plan was Windows XP - Next major update Windows 7 - But to fill in the long gap - Windows Vista was used. Same way - The old OS for RIM is the Java based BB OS which sees it's key major update to BB10, however to fill in the gap - the PlayBook OS is being used. PlayBook OS and BB10 are both based on QNX Neutrino OS with added layers of BlackBerry security. The BB10 OS is refined, corrected, added with features and optimized version of the PB OS. Majority of the PB OS architecture has been followed through to BB10. Key would be procnto - QNX Neutrino microkernel and process manager utilized in both BB10 and PB OS.

    There are some really foolish and personal arguments in this thread..

    1. Questioning the security status of BlackBerry, the owners of QNX and Certicom lol

    2. Stating that PlayBook OS differs from BB10 OS. So RIM made a new OS after making a new OS? Don't you think that would be some bigger news than RIM not launching native PIM?

    PS - Why is this one particular group fighting on every thread when they clearly don't have a point? They are using CrackBerry as a moral policing ground on correcting every word (literally every word). Guys you need to chill out. Not every poster is a professional tech blog writer, and they might mean something different. But constantly asking them to prove themselves right, means adding more incorrect posts to the thread. If you spot something wrong, you can correct it yourself. But I highly doubt that's the intention. Besides, I agree with all the 'stupid posts' and 'idiots' because they collectively make more sense than the really sorry attitude you few have brought in.
    Welcome out of lurking status.
    11-03-12 08:24 AM
  19. TgeekB's Avatar
    OMGBB10 - you will never make it here, you have too much common sense. Welcome to Crackberry.
    BlackBerry Guy likes this.
    11-03-12 08:29 AM
  20. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    It seems the bulk of the security fears would be alleviated if iPhone and Android were to receive the FIPS 140-2 certification. Since it's assumed that devices issued by gov will be managed, then it doesn't seem to be a big deal, since managed devices can be made FIPS 140-2 compliant. Here's an excerpt from Good Tech:

    "Military-Grade End-to-End Security
    Good for Government leverages Good�s container-based methodology to secure and manage sensitive data and prevent it from being leaked to other non-secure applications. The solution protects proprietary government data in-transit and at rest on the device using a FIPS 140-2 validated cryptographic module that utilizes AES encryption. Good for Government for iOS supports S/MIME and seamlessly integrates with National Security Agency (NSA) � approved Bluetooth Smartcard readers and the DoD Global Directory Services (GDS) and Public Key Environment (PKE). The solution offers administrators the ability to implement role-based security, data loss prevention and compliance policies to provide complete end-to-end protection of For Official Use Only (FOUO) and Sensitive But Unclassified (SBU) government information."

    Good Technology Brings Military Grade Security to iOS Devices for U.S. Department of Defense with Update to Good for Government
    Samsung, to my admittedly limited knowledge, seems to be the only Android OEM that had pursued and received FIPS certification. I assume that means Android can be hardened to get it.
    11-03-12 08:59 AM
  21. kraski's Avatar
    Samsung, to my admittedly limited knowledge, seems to be the only Android OEM that had pursued and received FIPS certification. I assume that means Android can be hardened to get it.
    It can. There was an article, maybe 6 months ago, about the Army working on its own android device for use in the field.
    11-03-12 09:28 AM
  22. reeneebob's Avatar
    Show me where I have endorsed the use of iOS or Android over BB within and behind my agency's firewalls.

    Sent from my iPhone 4S using Tapatalk


    Well the fact you are stating a fact that makes Blackberry 10 look negative on a Blackberry post and you are doing it from a iphone 4S kinds of make you look like your waving a flag for someone! You may not be saying it outright but your throwing out the what if like they could still fail. Kinds of like the "too little too late", "going under", "going bankrupt" comments, which I havent seen of late for most people who have not been fro RIM from day one.

    But just use the logic of the fact that the most secure os for moblie will defintely clear as it would be foolish to rewrite and go backwards!!!! Would you like to make the assumption that would happen? It is almost as foolish as a car company releasing something that caused a issue and then doing it again on another model created years later! Just don't happen!
    Awwww, it's cute.

    And now it's also ignored.

    The rest of the thread seems to be usual suspects being brick walls for the sake of some form of perverse self gratification. Must be quiet elsewhere.

    I've got blisters on me fingers!!! from using Tapatalk 2
    mikeo007 likes this.
    11-03-12 10:38 AM
  23. mikeo007's Avatar
    Welcome out of lurking status.
    And into banned status. Some people's efforts just make me laugh...
    richardat and CrackedBarry like this.
    11-03-12 10:41 AM
  24. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    And into banned status. Some people's efforts just make me laugh...
    It was hilarious... LOL. Fake accounts to make points.
    richardat likes this.
    11-03-12 10:55 AM
  25. kbz1960's Avatar
    Oh I didn't know you couldn't have more than one account. Must be many more around here banned then as I saw nothing said being ban worthy.
    11-03-12 10:55 AM
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