[garnok]

point noted, but this entire response, and the response prior to the point about how Android is so 'trendy', has not factually proved that

a) cross platform bbm
and
b) chinese companies like xiaomi, oppo, meizu

are the main causes of BlackBerry's inability to hold the fort in Indonesia.

However, the prospect of super easy pirating did make Android a very attractive option, compared to BlackBerry.

a) i've given some article, news, and people opinion about BBM cross platform, and how it make BB sales in indonesia drop..if you cant accept it , it is up to you...

b) once again you need to talk to other poster not me...i never said xiaomi and oppo eat BB lunch, they have a fringe marketshare in indonesia. but lenovo, andromax are surely eating BB lunch

c) of course in some market piracy is the king...and because pirated Android apps, at least some BB10 users can get apps they want...by pirating it..again

[garnok]

It does not really matter as much because the demographics that BlackBerry was fighting with in the past, and what BlackBerry will be up against (they will be against the carriers, and the carriers won't have their backs) would be very different. The goalposts change every single time.

we are talking about indonesian market...

most people buy their phone from phone store, unlock...not from carrier...

[badiyee]

a) i've given some article, news, and people opinion about BBM cross platform, and how it make BB sales in indonesia drop..if you cant accept it , it is up to you...

b) once again you need to talk to other poster not me...i never said xiaomi and oppo eat BB lunch, they have a fringe marketshare in indonesia. but lenovo, andromax are surely eating BB lunch

c) of course in some market piracy is the king...and because pirated Android apps, at least some BB10 users can get apps they want...by pirating it..again

1. So who is shifting the goalposts then? Definitely not me. I did not disagree that Android ate into BlackBerry's lunch. I'm saying the chinese companies aren't out there to target BlackBerry. You did, and if I do recall correctly FFR did.

we are talking about indonesian market...

most people buy their phone from phone store, unlock...not from carrier...

Have I mentioned anything about phones being sold by carriers? I only said BlackBerry won't get the support from the carriers. Please do not equate that two. That's literally, like...lightyears away. Please try not to put words into my mouth. I say as it is what I mean, and mean what I say.

[garnok]

1. Kompas is the most trusted media company in Indonesia? Its hard to believe that, because all I see is sensationalism. I will not argue past here, because it will be seen as me attacking Indonesian outlets, which is not the case to point, nor the case I'm defending. But my point about Kompas being super-sensationalist, still stands.

2. Please prove that KASKUS poll is more objective than a poll made in CrackBerry. If anything, data from CrackBerry should be more legitimate, assuming if every users that are still using a BlackBerry device in a meaningful / active way do participate. Please, you can do yourself a favour and try not to uphold a wet string straight "jangan tegakkan benang basah". Pointing to say KASKUS is "more objective than CrackBerry" is the same as saying bapak Sukarno was more liberal than any other president in Indonesia's history (to which many can say "no, he was not).

3. Your original post that quoted my post, was exactly about how these chinese phone manufacturers are eating into BlackBerry's lunch. My post was to quote that these chinese phone manufacturers are not targetting BlackBerry, they are targetting Android customers. If you have switched, you are an Android customer. If you are a BlackBerry customer, up to the point you switched (very true in the case of legacy devices) you are technically a BlackBerry customer because you paid for the service. You conveniently just lumped every single chinese manufacturers out there as " YES, we're here to eat BlackBerry's lunch!" which was the case I was making as "NO". That is the difference.

1) yup kompas is the most trusted media in indonesia...where do you get info that kompas super sensationalist?

2) kaskus being access by many indonesian internet users, it is a forum to discuss about many things including technology and it is not a fansite...while CB is a Blackberry fansite. you can say ugly thing about soekarno maybe it is because you read foreign media propaganda, but in indonesia he is being loved by many, and being respected by everyone in indonesia..

3) read again carefully it is FFR saying xiaomi and oppo eat BB lunch...

we are talking about phone right? why are you trying to bash indonesia first president, one of the hero from our country?

from your profile i know you are from malaysia, i have travel to malaysia and have a huge respect with malaysians because there are lot of nice people there, it is a forum about technology not a politics

you think you know indonesians market because we are neighbours but in the end, no you dont know it...

[garnok]

1. So who is shifting the goalposts then? Definitely not me. I did not disagree that Android ate into BlackBerry's lunch. I'm saying the chinese companies aren't out there to target BlackBerry. You did, and if I do recall correctly FFR did.



Have I mentioned anything about phones being sold by carriers? I only said BlackBerry won't get the support from the carriers. Please do not equate that two. That's literally, like...lightyears away. Please try not to put words into my mouth. I say as it is what I mean, and mean what I say.

1. you try to focus to xiaomi, and oppo and in my post i said it clearly they have small market share in indonesia. while other chinese company like lenovo clearly eat BB lunch.

2. you say about carriers...in indonesia carrier support it is not important to sell a phone. you dont like for me to put words into your mouth ? read again carefully...

[badiyee]

1) yup kompas is the most trusted media in indonesia...where do you get info that kompas super sensationalist?

2) kaskus being access by many indonesian internet users, it is a forum to discuss about many things including technology and it is not a fansite...while CB is a Blackberry fansite. you can say ugly thing about soekarno maybe it is because you read foreign media propaganda, but in indonesia he is being loved by many, and being respected by everyone in indonesia..

3) read again carefully it is FFR saying xiaomi and oppo eat BB lunch...

we are talking about phone right? why are you trying to bash indonesia first president, one of the hero from our country?

1) Kompas has always been a sensationalist site. However, like I've reiterated, I will not talk further about this because talking about Kompas has almost no correlation to the preposterous idea that you claim that chinese manufacturers are out there to eat blackBerry's lunch and that cross platform bbm, combining these 2 factors became the main force of BlackBerry's downfall in Indonesia. You pointed that you drew that article and claimed that the article is valid because Kompas is "trusted". Yeah, trusted as a propagandic tool for certain quarters? heck yeah. I'll buy that. Trusted for neutrality? No.

2. It is EXACTLY because CrackBerry is a fansite, where if you rope in 10 in a random sample, and in that random sample you're going to have at least a simple majority to claim that out that 10, the simple majority will be an active user of BlackBerry devices / users of BlackBerry devices in a meaningful manner. And you can repeat that random sample again, and again, and again, and you'll still get better probability that the sample roped in (out of 10 people per rope/draw) will form a simple majority of BlackBerry users. Hence, having that question poll (which, if I recall, was actually done before, with the headlines "which phone will you choose if BlackBerry went bust") would be much more valid, because of the fact that the sample size are from people who actually use BlackBerry.

Can you say the same for Kaskus' sample size? I've already even pointed out in page 6 of that thread of yours that an Android user "from the beginning" voted for Android and even admitted he voted because he was an Android user (not even switching from BlackBerry!) and hence that sample is already "polluted", and is not valid. And read again, just because there's a poll, it does not mean people will be honest. But if you do the same poll in CrackBerry, even if people lied about, chances are you still will rope in more authentic samples where people actually use (and still use) a BlackBerry having to face the decision of "what if", and make a choice between iOS, Android, Mozilla, or every other flavour out there.

3. Have I bashed Indonesia's first president? Have I badmouthed him? I said, and I requote as following. Please point out WHERE and HOW did I insulted bapak Sukarno.

Pointing to say KASKUS is "more objective than CrackBerry" is the same as saying bapak Sukarno was more liberal than any other president in Indonesia's history (to which many can say "no, he was not)

[garnok]

1) Kompas has always been a sensationalist site. However, like I've reiterated, I will not talk further about this because talking about Kompas has almost no correlation to the preposterous idea that you claim that chinese manufacturers are out there to eat blackBerry's lunch and that cross platform bbm, combining these 2 factors became the main force of BlackBerry's downfall in Indonesia. You pointed that you drew that article and claimed that the article is valid because Kompas is "trusted". Yeah, trusted as a propagandic tool for certain quarters? heck yeah. I'll buy that. Trusted for neutrality? No.

2. It is EXACTLY because CrackBerry is a fansite, where if you rope in 10 in a random sample, and in that random sample you're going to have at least a simple majority to claim that out that 10, the simple majority will be an active user of BlackBerry devices / users of BlackBerry devices in a meaningful manner. And you can repeat that random sample again, and again, and again, and you'll still get better probability that the sample roped in (out of 10 people per rope/draw) will form a simple majority of BlackBerry users. Hence, having that question poll (which, if I recall, was actually done before, with the headlines "which phone will you choose if BlackBerry went bust") would be much more valid, because of the fact that the sample size are from people who actually use BlackBerry.

Can you say the same for Kaskus' sample size? I've already even pointed out in page 6 of that thread of yours that an Android user "from the beginning" voted for Android and even admitted he voted because he was an Android user (not even switching from BlackBerry!) and hence that sample is already "polluted", and is not valid. And read again, just because there's a poll, it does not mean people will be honest. But if you do the same poll in CrackBerry, even if people lied about, chances are you still will rope in more authentic samples where people actually use (and still use) a BlackBerry having to face the decision of "what if", and make a choice between iOS, Android, Mozilla, or every other flavour out there.

3. Have I bashed Indonesia's first president? Have I badmouthed him? I said, and I requote as following. Please point out WHERE and HOW did I insulted bapak Sukarno.


[/FONT][/COLOR]

1. kompas is a propagandic tool...no it is not, it is own by private not by government..kompas also frequenlty critics indonesia government..and it is not only kompas i have given you sources from financial times and tech in asia...

2. we are talking about indonesian market, and how indonesian think about Blackberry...BBM cross platform in the end avoid BB gain new sales, and turning BB previous owner to other platform, in CB you can't do that because the majority will turn it to keep 'BB win'

3. you said Soekaeno is not a liberal person with a sarcastic tone ( liberal : political ideas about liberty and equality)..our nation ideology is pancasila , soekarno is one of the founding father of this ideology...you should read more about it before making a comment

can someone inform me..how to report to moderator? ...we are talking about technology but badiyee want to turn it to political talk..badmouth about indonesian local media and president...

me and i am sure some indonesians CB member doesnt appreciate his comment...

[badiyee]

1. kompas is a propagandic tool...no it is not, it is own by private not by government..and it is not only kompas i have given you sources from financial times and tech in asia...

2. we are talking about indonesian market, and how indonesian think about Blackberry...BBM cross platform in the end avoid BB gain new sales, and turning BB previous owner to other platform, in CB you can't do that because the majority will turn it to keep 'BB win'

3. you said Soekaeno is not a liberal person with a sarcastic tone ( liberal : political ideas about liberty and equality)..our nation ideology is pancasila , soekarno is one of the founding father of this ideology...you should read more about it before making a comment

can someone inform me..how to report to moderator? ...we are talking about technology but badiyee want to turn it to political talk..badmouth about indonesian local media and president...

me and i am sure some indonesians CB member doesnt appreciate his comment...

there's the report button right there. There, the black colored button, with the "!" sign, on the right side of every single post. There you go. Knock yourself out.

I have, again and again, stated what I need to, and have not talked anything political. You accuse me of insulting your president, which I did not. I equated to 2 things, as a comparison, and you are saying I'm badmouthing an Indonesian figure. Have I stated that in any way bapak Sukarno is a bad guy or did any bad things, apart from your claim that I'm supposed to be "sarcastic" on the "not a liberal person"? That is a big accusation on your end, to put words into my mouth.

Please prove that I'm "sarcastic" as you have claimed and you may yet have a case. Otherwise, all I have been doing is exactly what I've been doing: refuting that "cross platform bbm" and "the chinese are out there to get BlackBerry's lunch" arguments as major pointers why BlackBerry failed in Indonesia as just.. 'bollocks' claims with no absolute concrete proof'.

[garnok]

there's the report button right there. There, the black colored button, with the "!" sign, on the right side of every single post. There you go. Knock yourself out.

I have, again and again, stated what I need to, and have not talked anything political. You accuse me of insulting your president, which I did not. I equated to 2 things, as a comparison, and you are saying I'm badmouthing an Indonesian figure. Have I stated that in any way bapak Sukarno is a bad guy or did any bad things, apart from your claim that I'm supposed to be "sarcastic" on the "not a liberal person"? That is a big accusation on your end, to put words into my mouth.

Please prove that I'm "sarcastic" as you have claimed and you may yet have a case. Otherwise, all I have been doing is exactly what I've been doing: refuting that "cross platform bbm" and "the chinese are out there to get BlackBerry's lunch" arguments as major pointers why BlackBerry failed in Indonesia as just.. 'bollocks' claims with no absolute concrete proof'.

i have given you link from many trusted sources local, and international news company...you've trying to ignore it because you telling me the local media is a propaganda, no it is not..

i dont want to end up with flaming discussion, if you want to talk about tech it is fine for me...but put political matter / opinion into discussion i dont appreciate it...as a neighbour country we have something to complain with each other...but this is not apropriate place to discuss it

done...thank you for information, i've already make a report for your post...

[bbhuh]

What the heck... how come crackberry can be better at translating what indonesian market look like than the biggest forum in Indonesia?

Crackberry is a fanbase site only have small indonesian member how the heck it's better translating Indonesian market?

Maybe blackberry indonesia should just survey crackberry users then if they want to gather some data...

Either you are delusional blackberry cheerleader or you just trying to look smart with no proof whatsoever to backup your opinion.

Sent from multiple devices using Tapatalk

[FFR]

many, and
3) read again carefully it is FFR saying xiaomi and oppo eat BB lunch...

I said android devices.

(Android and iOS devices) + (BBM) = eating blackberry's lunch in Indonisia, Dubai, and India

[badiyee]

What the heck... how come crackberry can be better at translating what indonesian market look like than the biggest forum in Indonesia?

Crackberry is a fanbase site only have small indonesian member how the heck it's better translating Indonesian market?

Maybe blackberry indonesia should just survey crackberry users then if they want to gather some data...

Either you are delusional blackberry cheerleader or you just trying to look smart with no proof whatsoever to backup your opinion.

Sent from multiple devices using Tapatalk

to be objective, the poster (garnok) pointed that his claims that the thread about "blackberry users leaving for ios and android" as legit because it was held in kaskus (a forum that's number 1 in size, in the indonesian cyberspace). I questioned that as a valid proof to justify that because such a thread exist, and there was options, therefore it was a correct assessment of the general Indonesian sentiment about BlackBerry users wanting to leave to an Android / iOS device. I even pointed out in that thread, page 6, an Android user posted that he voted because he's in the Android camp, (and no, he has not used a BlackBerry), and so I attacked the validity of the post, drawing a parallel that if such a post was done (it actually was done before) on CrackBerry, the sample would be authentic because there are more BlackBerry users in crackberry than in kaskus.

If you think i'm delusional blackberry cheerleader, be my guest. But saying i'm trying to look smart with no proof to my opinion, I think you took aim at the wrong guy because these are the posters that came up with the notion that "cross platform BlackBerry" + "Chinese manufacturers are out there to get BlackBerry's lunch!" arguments as the main reason why BlackBerry is failing / has failed in Indonesia. I have again and again asked for burden of proof of such claims, and these are their 'proofs', to which I find not factual enough, and with fallacies, and outright invalid (or made invalid).

So, who are you referring to again?

[badiyee]

I said android devices.

(Android and iOS devices) + (BBM) = eating blackberry's lunch in Indonisia, Dubai, and India

oops,I stand corrected.
However, did you said that these Android manufacturers are out to get BlackBerry again?

[garnok]

I said android devices.

(Android and iOS devices) + (BBM) = eating blackberry's lunch in Indonisia, Dubai, and India

sorry turns out after re read it it is not you it is other poster

[FFR]

oops,I stand corrected.
However, did you said that these Android manufacturers are out to get BlackBerry again?

I clarified my assertion in the following paragraph in my original post.

Are these manufactures even selling outside of china?

[FFR]

sorry turns out after re read it it is not you it is other poster

No worries .

[garnok]

to be objective, the poster (garnok) pointed that his claims that the thread about "blackberry users leaving for ios and android" as legit because it was held in kaskus (a forum that's number 1 in size, in the indonesian cyberspace). I questioned that as a valid proof to justify that because such a thread exist, and there was options, therefore it was a correct assessment of the general Indonesian sentiment about BlackBerry users wanting to leave to an Android / iOS device. I even pointed out in that thread, page 6, an Android user posted that he voted because he's in the Android camp, (and no, he has not used a BlackBerry), and so I attacked the validity of the post, drawing a parallel that if such a post was done (it actually was done before) on CrackBerry, the sample would be authentic because there are more BlackBerry users in crackberry than in kaskus.

If you think i'm delusional blackberry cheerleader, be my guest. But saying i'm trying to look smart with no proof to my opinion, I think you took aim at the wrong guy because these are the posters that came up with the notion that "cross platform BlackBerry" + "Chinese manufacturers are out there to get BlackBerry's lunch!" arguments as the main reason why BlackBerry is failing / has failed in Indonesia. I have again and again asked for burden of proof of such claims, and these are their 'proofs', to which I find not factual enough, and with fallacies, and outright invalid (or made invalid).

So, who are you referring to again?

kaskus being added only for people know what people think about BBM cross platform, it is the largest indonesian forum, it is the easiest way to know...ok if you dont like kaskus then how about financial times and tech in asia? they ve made article pointing many indonesian BB users leaving BB to android phone because BBM cross platform

and from recent article (look from my previous post)while samsung still on top...chinese company like Lenovo, and other china made phone (andromax, some model are from hisense china company, rebranded into andromax) gaining huge market share, while blackberry number keep declining...and i never said oppo and xiaomi eating BB lunch.
http://www.techinasia.com/blackberry...fren-andromax/

and some of android phone targeting BB users, you can look it in their ads they always put BBM ready, BBM available etc

[bbhuh]

I cant quote long messages as i'm on the phone and yes i stand by my opinion. Every phone manufacturers in Indonesia are eating blackberry's pie.

And someday if blackberry can stand up then blackberry will also eat those manufacturers pie.

Sent from multiple devices using Tapatalk

[badiyee]

I clarified my assertion in the following paragraph in my original post.

Are these manufactures even selling outside of china?

yes they are. I can't say for each and every single chinese manufacturers, but there are chinese companies (as in China based companies) selling their devices as grey imports or single authorized permit imports. My initial contention was these guys were already in Indonesia (or South East Asia market) before people actually give any precepts of significant importance to them.