[BB_Junky]

The consumers are partially responsible for this as well. As long as the product is available when they want it and for a cheaper-than-local price, they will turn a blind eye to the suffering involved as long and they can.

The 90% of the general public gives a flying hoot where the metals were dug up for the pretty edge around their phones. Geeks ,fanboys ,isheep, 'droids, who frequent these forums have ideals and knowledge but not your group of cheerleaders or gang of people at the job site.
When you Buy a car, do you first go through each and every component and do searches to see where,how, when it was accumulated,manufactured ,developed and do you do back ground checks on every single company involved before you drive off the lot ? I know I don't.
Its in the hands of the companies who hire on these companies with known employees conditions and continue to do so regardless of where the factories are located. They are still supporting them , you
Can yell all you want from your soap box but the dollar is the bottom line.


Sent from the device that works best for me using Tapatalk HD

[BlackberryAtQuadra]

Long live hypocritical and world peace

Posted via CB10

Ouch, that hurts hahahahaha

Show us the proof of such said agreement, I'm curious what led you to believe this?

Posted via CB10

Ups. I did it again, blackberry excluded, only apple, my bad, sorry

Posted via CB10

We all know that I can't show the agreement, but the question is at place, along with Hendri's "mocking" ...

Is it true:
Foxconn is a big company and works for a lot of big and well known companies (almost every). As we know Foxconn possess numerous of different production facilities around the world.
Apple subcontracts Foxconn production of iProducts, and Foxconn commits 40% of overall production capacities for Apple, in dedicated production sites, and 60% for others in sites all over the world.
So, we can argue that majority of Foxconn's production sites are occupied with production for other companies, and less sites for Apple.

Is it true:
For years, we read and hear, from numerous different trustworthy sources (NY Times, BBC, ....) and NGOs, about alleged extensive and specific labor abuse in the Foxconn's production sites in which Apple's iproducts are produced. There is no similar reports, in that number, from the other (majority of) production sites, which produce products for other companies (you can see a list in GoJaysGo's post #21).

So how come I am hypocritical because I believe, based on previously known, that something is wrong, and that is specifically related with Apple (just one thing, please don't add a conspiracy against Apple argument hahahaha), so exclusivity and exclusion is only logical in this case?

And for the end a message :

Luke:

Your thoughts betray you, Father. I feel the good in you, the conflict.

Darth Vader:

There is no conflict.

Luke:

You couldn't bring yourself to kill me before and I don't believe you'll destroy me now.

Darth Vader:

You underestimate the power of the Dark Side. If you will not fight, then you will meet your destiny.

hahahahha
world peace!

[MarsupilamiX]

You should hold the unions and all the regulations placed upon these companies from the left to blame. Besides corporate taxes in the USA are some of the highest in the world.

Posted via CB10

So I should blame people for not wanting to work under chinese labour conditions? Yeah, I'll blame humans for having evolved to the degree of actually having expectations from their workplace, that go beyond of being a modern slave.

Or I could blame corporations who are unwilling to give up a certain amount of profit, to not have slave like working conditions for their labour...

Well, I guess I know on what side of the spectrum you are, if you blame the workers.

[MarsupilamiX]

Ouch, that hurts hahahahaha





We all know that I can't show the agreement, but the question is at place, along with Hendri's "mocking" ...

Is it true:
Foxconn is a big company and works for a lot of big and well known companies (almost every). As we know Foxconn possess numerous of different production facilities around the world.
Apple subcontracts Foxconn production of iProducts, and Foxconn commits 40% of overall production capacities for Apple, in dedicated production sites, and 60% for others in sites all over the world.
So, we can argue that majority of Foxconn's production sites are occupied with production for other companies, and less sites for Apple.

Is it true:
For years, we read and hear, from numerous different trustworthy sources (NY Times, BBC, ....) and NGOs, about alleged extensive and specific labor abuse in the Foxconn's production sites in which Apple's iproducts are produced. There is no similar reports, in that number, from the other (majority of) production sites, which produce products for other companies (you can see a list in GoJaysGo's post #21).

So how come I am hypocritical because I believe, based on previously known, that something is wrong, and that is specifically related with Apple (just one thing, please don't add a conspiracy against Apple argument hahahaha), so exclusivity and exclusion is only logical in this case?

And for the end a message :

Luke:

Your thoughts betray you, Father. I feel the good in you, the conflict.

Darth Vader:

There is no conflict.

Luke:

You couldn't bring yourself to kill me before and I don't believe you'll destroy me now.

Darth Vader:

You underestimate the power of the Dark Side. If you will not fight, then you will meet your destiny.

hahahahha
world peace!

Honestly?
Finding Apple apologists definitely isn't your biggest issue, if you don't understand the hypocrisy of blaming and shaming Apple, who does the exact same thing as BlackBerry.

They both have a manufacturing deal with Foxconn.
They both use a workforce that works in slave-like conditions.
They both need parts that were mostly made in China (no matter where the assembly of these parts happens).

If you don't understand why blaming one, while praising the other, even though they exactly do the same thing, is hypocritical, you definitely need a dictionary.
If you blame Apple, then you have to blame BlackBerry, when they both do the exact same thing. Not doing that, makes you a hypocrit.
Explicitly saying that BlackBerry is better than Apple, even though they share the exact same practices, just makes you look insane...

[BlackberryAtQuadra]

Finding Apple apologists definitely isn't your biggest issue, if you don't understand the hypocrisy of blaming and shaming Apple, who does the exact same thing as BlackBerry.

What would be you explanation for reports, and the number of the reports?
Please, direct me to reports about BlackBerry in regards to this matter, so I can see "... Apple, does the exact same thing as BlackBerry" or vice versa, and I will change my position (by the way blaming/praising issue, I was clear that I don't like Foxconn/Blackberry agreement - see #172). Until then, I won't pretend to know something what is just an assumption (or wishful thinking).

[thracian]

ot your group of cheerleaders or gang of people at the job site.
When you Buy a car, do you first go through each and every component and do searches to see where,how, when it was accumulated,manufactured ,developed and do you do back ground checks on every single company involved before you drive off the lot ? I know I don't.

You just invalidated all of the organic smartphone hippie hypocrites, shame on you!
Nice job nailing it though. These cheerleaders for fair smartphone plant working conditions are too tunnel visioned to remember the source of all the other products in their lives besides phones, and just jump on popular bandwagons while ignoring everything else they don't take a stance on

[MarsupilamiX]

What would be you explanation for reports, and the number of the reports?
Please, direct me to reports about BlackBerry in regards to this matter, so I can see "... Apple, does the exact same thing as BlackBerry" or vice versa, and I will change my position (by the way blaming/praising issue, I was clear that I don't like Foxconn/Blackberry agreement - see #172). Until then, I won't pretend to know something what is just an assumption (or wishful thinking).

Apple has a manufacturing contract with Foxconn.
BlackBerry has a manufacturing contract with Foxconn.
Foxconn has issues with working conditions.

Now find the thing both Apple and BlackBerry have in common(hint: it has to do with Foxconn)...
Right! They both use the same entity to manufacture their devices. An entity that is well known to exploit their workforce, irregardless of who contracts them and there are enough media reports about that.

I don't need to find articles mentioning BlackBerry's working conditions on the assembly line, because there are probably 0 about them. As will be the case with Apple.
Simply, because both "manufacturers" don't manufacture themselves. They have contractors who do that for them.
Since BlackBerry now uses the same contractor as Apple...
Every criticism towards Apple, because of an issue the contractor has, is also criticism you can apply to BlackBerry now.

The proof lies in the fact that Foxconn produces for both of them.. There isn't a good and a bad Foxconn. There is no special Foxconn just for Apple, who ignores labour rights and has even worse conditions than the normal Foxconn. Nor is there a special one for BlackBerry with better working conditions (not mentioning that BlackBerry couldn't afford that, even if such a thing would exist)...

[BlackberryAtQuadra]

Every criticism towards Apple, because of an issue the contractor has, is also criticism you can apply to BlackBerry now.

Yes, exactly, there's history (promises and broken promises - Apple), and a future that we must wait to happen (maybe Blackberry will give promises and break promises, maybe BlackBerry would find cool to wake up 8000 engineers in the middle of the night to work until the work is done, and so on, or, in short : exploiting, to the maximum, labor working conditions that can be found in Foxconn : incitement Foxconn to worsen evident bad working condition, even more, with their insane requests and requirements).
When and If this happen then I will criticize BlackBerry for that not for contracting Foxconn (everyone should be given a fair chance).

p.s. thanks for the hint hahahahaha

[z10Jobe]

Honestly?
Finding Apple apologists definitely isn't your biggest issue, if you don't understand the hypocrisy of blaming and shaming Apple, who does the exact same thing as BlackBerry.

They both have a manufacturing deal with Foxconn.
They both use a workforce that works in slave-like conditions.
They both need parts that were mostly made in China (no matter where the assembly of these parts happens).

If you don't understand why blaming one, while praising the other, even though they exactly do the same thing, is hypocritical, you definitely need a dictionary.
If you blame Apple, then you have to blame BlackBerry, when they both do the exact same thing. Not doing that, makes you a hypocrit.
Explicitly saying that BlackBerry is better than Apple, even though they share the exact same practices, just makes you look insane...

Yer wrong Marsu.

BlackBerry phones for the most part are made in North America via an American contractor in Mexico and others are made in Europe I believe (please correct me on the Europe thing if I am wrong). Apart from some Motorola devices, I believe that BlackBerry is the only cell phones made in North America. BlackBerry's are not made in a huge factory city requiring suicide nets where the workers live and breath work effectively 24/7

Yes BlackBerry recently does have Foxconn make a specific model of phone (z3) for the Asian market, but that is only to be even close to be price competitive in the sea of cheap asian made android phones. All apple iPhones are made by Foxconn in China, even the ones destined for Europe and North America.

I will agree with one thing that you said. Finding Apple apologists is not a big issue.


Posted via CB10

[MarsupilamiX]

Yer wrong Marsu.

BlackBerry phones for the most part are made in North America via an American contractor in Mexico and others are made in Europe I believe (please correct me on the Europe thing if I am wrong). Apart from some Motorola devices, I believe that BlackBerry is the only cell phones made in North America. BlackBerry's are not made in a huge factory city requiring suicide nets where the workers live and breath work effectively 24/7

Yes BlackBerry recently does have Foxconn make a specific model of phone (z3) for the Asian market, but that is only to be even close to be price competitive in the sea of cheap asian made android phones. All apple iPhones are made by Foxconn in China, even the ones destined for Europe and North America.

I will agree with one thing that you said. Finding Apple apologists is not a big issue.


Posted via CB10

BlackBerry doesn't produce Z10s anymore. Safe to say the same thing about the Q5 and Q10. I am not sure about the Z30, I think that producing more of it wouldn't make sense.

So you currently have 3 phones that are being manufactured by BlackBerry. The Classic, the Passport and the Z3.
2/3 of them are being produced by Foxconn.

So yeah, I'd say that you are wrong because things have changed. 2/3 of BlackBerry's current models are produced by Foxconn.
You know, the contractor who has suicide nets?
And the Passport is (mostly) produced in Mexico, which isn't exactly North America either.
It should also be of note, that BlackBerry only produced a small batch of their models, in North America. The 9810 and the Z10 I had, both were made in Hungary for example. BlackBerries out of Canada even had a higher resell and collectors value than others, because of their rarity.

Regarding suicide nets: This is a Foxconn issue, not an Apple one. Actually, it's an issue in a lot of factories in China, as the working conditions and the prospects aren't exactly great. Ever Googled Shenzhen?
What about http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides?

I'll say it again, and you can understand it or not:
This is a Foxconn issue, not an Apple one. And since BlackBerry now manufactures 2/3 of their phones at Foxconn... It means that, if you think that Apple is to fault for Foxconn's labour practices, you can start to blame everyone else who contracts Foxconn as well.

It's time to understand that things have changed. Well and probably also time to understand that you might have had a slightly glorified vision of BlackBerry, since most of their phones surely haven't been produced in North America. And even from those who did, where do you things the components have been sourced?

Edit: Just to clarify though...
Since Apple is the most valuable company in the world, and also has immense cash reserves, I do think that they should step up their game, and become a role model in the industry, in terms of "labour protection".
Apple can afford to do that.

(usually a company would invest in such things, because of the positive PR, and the therefore higher sale numbers. People, even though they want things for cheap, do want to be able to happily sleep at night. Hearing things like "12 year old children working overnight at Apple manufacturer Foxconn" or "14 suicides at Apple contractor Hon Hai Precisions" usually aren't exactly the things you really desire to be remembered of.

The only problem is that... When it comes down to Apple, most people just don't give an eff. So Apple has no need to demand higher standards, because of the PR. They would need to do it, because they can.)

[RH1Pearl]

What about telecom firms that earn massive profits from IPhones and other Apple products. If you're against suicide labour practices and you subscribe to that particular telco, would you cut your contract now and look for a Carrier that doesn't sell Apple products? And if so, good luck finding one.

[TGR1]

Since Apple is the most valuable company in the world, and also has immense cash reserves, I do think that they should step up their game, and become a role model in the industry, in terms of "labour protection".
Apple can afford to do that.

(usually a company would invest in such things, because of the positive PR, and the therefore higher sale numbers. People, even though they want things for cheap, do want to be able to happily sleep at night. Hearing things like "12 year old children working overnight at Apple manufacturer Foxconn" or "14 suicides at Apple contractor Hon Hai Precisions" usually aren't exactly the things you really desire to be remembered of.

The only problem is that... When it comes down to Apple, most people just don't give an eff. So Apple has no need to demand higher standards, because of the PR. They would need to do it, because they can.)

Apple conducts a fair number of supplier audits on responsibility, including subcontracts IIRC, that they make at least partially publically available (https://www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/pdf/Apple_SR_2014_Progress_Report.pdf). That's why it is easy for the media to trumpet the highly sensational "broken promises". The other companies using the various suppliers have not publically exposed themselves in this way, including BBRY. Keep your head down and let the bullets hit the bigger target.

Could Apple do better? Undoubtedly. How much better? Now that is a damn good question.

It's easy to target BIG BAD BUSINESS but one hardly has to look beyond one's own backyard to see employment abuses. If anything, I would say some of the private small businesses are right up there. Ever wonder about the people straightening up your cubicle at night? Cleaning the bathrooms? Ever seen how some of them are treated? Ever even talked to some of them? Unpleasant and eye-opening.

As for the Foxconn suicides, it's been claimed that "the suicide rate at Foxconn, even during the suicide spate, was lower than that of China as well as that of all 50 states of the United States". But it makes great copy.

[BCITMike]

BlackBerry doesn't produce Z10s anymore. Safe to say the same thing about the Q5 and Q10. I am not sure about the Z30, I think that producing more of it wouldn't make sense.

So you currently have 3 phones that are being manufactured by BlackBerry. The Classic, the Passport and the Z3.
2/3 of them are being produced by Foxconn.

So yeah, I'd say that you are wrong because things have changed. 2/3 of BlackBerry's current models are produced by Foxconn.
You know, the contractor who has suicide nets?
And the Passport is (mostly) produced in Mexico, which isn't exactly North America either.
It should also be of note, that BlackBerry only produced a small batch of their models, in North America. The 9810 and the Z10 I had, both were made in Hungary for example. BlackBerries out of Canada even had a higher resell and collectors value than others, because of their rarity.

Regarding suicide nets: This is a Foxconn issue, not an Apple one. Actually, it's an issue in a lot of factories in China, as the working conditions and the prospects aren't exactly great. Ever Googled Shenzhen?
What about Foxconn suicides - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'll say it again, and you can understand it or not:
This is a Foxconn issue, not an Apple one. And since BlackBerry now manufactures 2/3 of their phones at Foxconn... It means that, if you think that Apple is to fault for Foxconn's labour practices, you can start to blame everyone else who contracts Foxconn as well.

It's time to understand that things have changed. Well and probably also time to understand that you might have had a slightly glorified vision of BlackBerry, since most of their phones surely haven't been produced in North America. And even from those who did, where do you things the components have been sourced?

Edit: Just to clarify though...
Since Apple is the most valuable company in the world, and also has immense cash reserves, I do think that they should step up their game, and become a role model in the industry, in terms of "labour protection".
Apple can afford to do that.

(usually a company would invest in such things, because of the positive PR, and the therefore higher sale numbers. People, even though they want things for cheap, do want to be able to happily sleep at night. Hearing things like "12 year old children working overnight at Apple manufacturer Foxconn" or "14 suicides at Apple contractor Hon Hai Precisions" usually aren't exactly the things you really desire to be remembered of.

The only problem is that... When it comes down to Apple, most people just don't give an eff. So Apple has no need to demand higher standards, because of the PR. They would need to do it, because they can.)

You're missing the point of this thread. Read the topic again. It's specifically about how Apple makes certain claims but do not truly follow through. There are many companies who actually follow through. Companies who don't make profit up to wazoo.

You cannot lump BlackBerry into same with Apple. Apple has huge need for quantity of phones in short time while maintaining secrecy. This puts way more strain on Foxconn employees and scheduling than building a batch of BlackBerry phones well known in advance at much smaller quantities. I'm sure they don't get the factory priority like Apple does.

[MarsupilamiX]

You're missing the point of this thread. Read the topic again. It's specifically about how Apple makes certain claims but do not truly follow through. There are many companies who actually follow through. Companies who don't make profit up to wazoo.

You cannot lump BlackBerry into same with Apple. Apple has huge need for quantity of phones in short time while maintaining secrecy. This puts way more strain on Foxconn employees and scheduling than building a batch of BlackBerry phones well known in advance at much smaller quantities. I'm sure they don't get the factory priority like Apple does.

So BlackBerry has a contract with the good part of Foxconn?

[BlackberryAtQuadra]

Since Apple is the most valuable company in the world, and also has immense cash reserves, I do think that they should step up their game, and become a role model in the industry, in terms of "labour protection".
Apple can afford to do that.

Good advice (and themes in compliance with subject of this thread).

Like

[BCITMike]

So BlackBerry has a contract with the good part of Foxconn?

Again, you're missing the point of this thread. Try a reply without mentioning BlackBerry.

When we see the BBC 's expose on Foxconn making BlackBerry's, and you can quote Chen on various claims, feel free to start your own thread.

Posted via CB10

[sean3089]

Once BlackBerry becomes #1 again and starts making 75 million phones a quarter there's going to be a lot of busy Canadians!

[TgeekB]

Again, you're missing the point of this thread. Try a reply without mentioning BlackBerry.

When we see the BBC 's expose on Foxconn making BlackBerry's, and you can quote Chen on various claims, feel free to start your own thread.

Posted via CB10

So only agree with you and don't add anything to the conversation? People aren't allowed to think critically?

Posted from my awesome Classic.

[z10Jobe]

Again, you're missing the point of this thread. Try a reply without mentioning BlackBerry.

When we see the BBC 's expose on Foxconn making BlackBerry's, and you can quote Chen on various claims, feel free to start your own thread.

Posted via CB10

Thank you. The sheep keep getting the wool in their eyes.

Posted via CB10

[Hendri Hendri]

Stop it guys. It's useless to discuss this over and over again.

This topic is about apple broken promise - yup, apple quilty

If you think it's wise to point or blame at something, which you think you are better than him/her, just do it.

Some old chinese saying, if you point at someone, 1 finger pointing at target, 3 fingers pointing at yourself

world peace

Posted via CB10

[BCITMike]

So only agree with you and don't add anything to the conversation? People aren't allowed to think critically?

Posted from my awesome Classic.

My response was akin to 'stay on topic', which is that Apple repeatedly make claims to certain standards, over and over and he's missing the point of this thread. I didn't see the mention of that in that last response. Feel free to read what you want. It was pretty clear to me he was being a troll. I mean, "And the Passport is (mostly) produced in Mexico, which isn't exactly North America either. " Not sure if he's intentionally being obtuse. Just getting the Fox effect on this by coming out of left field instead of the exact topic.

[thracian]

BlackBerry doesn't produce Z10s anymore. Safe to say the same thing about the Q5 and Q10. I am not sure about the Z30, I think that producing more of it wouldn't make sense.

So you currently have 3 phones that are being manufactured by BlackBerry. The Classic, the Passport and the Z3.
2/3 of them are being produced by Foxconn.

So yeah, I'd say that you are wrong because things have changed. 2/3 of BlackBerry's current models are produced by Foxconn.
You know, the contractor who has suicide nets?
And the Passport is (mostly) produced in Mexico, which isn't exactly North America either.
It should also be of note, that BlackBerry only produced a small batch of their models, in North America. The 9810 and the Z10 I had, both were made in Hungary for example. BlackBerries out of Canada even had a higher resell and collectors value than others, because of their rarity.

Regarding suicide nets: This is a Foxconn issue, not an Apple one. Actually, it's an issue in a lot of factories in China, as the working conditions and the prospects aren't exactly great. Ever Googled Shenzhen?
What about http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides?

I'll say it again, and you can understand it or not:
This is a Foxconn issue, not an Apple one. And since BlackBerry now manufactures 2/3 of their phones at Foxconn... It means that, if you think that Apple is to fault for Foxconn's labour practices, you can start to blame everyone else who contracts Foxconn as well.

It's time to understand that things have changed. Well and probably also time to understand that you might have had a slightly glorified vision of BlackBerry, since most of their phones surely haven't been produced in North America. And even from those who did, where do you things the components have been sourced?

Edit: Just to clarify though...
Since Apple is the most valuable company in the world, and also has immense cash reserves, I do think that they should step up their game, and become a role model in the industry, in terms of "labour protection".
Apple can afford to do that.

(usually a company would invest in such things, because of the positive PR, and the therefore higher sale numbers. People, even though they want things for cheap, do want to be able to happily sleep at night. Hearing things like "12 year old children working overnight at Apple manufacturer Foxconn" or "14 suicides at Apple contractor Hon Hai Precisions" usually aren't exactly the things you really desire to be remembered of.

The only problem is that... When it comes down to Apple, most people just don't give an eff. So Apple has no need to demand higher standards, because of the PR. They would need to do it, because they can.)

I don't see what your issue is. Suicide nets save lives = more downtrodden workers kept at work = lower production costs = savings for western buyers! Now repeat this formula for coffee bean harvesters and you get an iPhone AND a Starbucks for less! I call that a win.

[TgeekB]

My response was akin to 'stay on topic', which is that Apple repeatedly make claims to certain standards, over and over and he's missing the point of this thread. I didn't see the mention of that in that last response. Feel free to read what you want. It was pretty clear to me he was being a troll. I mean, "And the Passport is (mostly) produced in Mexico, which isn't exactly North America either. " Not sure if he's intentionally being obtuse. Just getting the Fox effect on this by coming out of left field instead of the exact topic.

Understood but if are going to discuss how corporations negatively affect consumers we can't have a narrow view that only points to one company. I don't disagree with the premise of the thread. Apple is only out to make a profit. But I also think it's fair, and quite necessary, to look at all the other consumer goods we buy. We can't turn a blind eye to things we like. Cheers.

Posted from my awesome Classic.

[BCITMike]

Understood but if are going to discuss how corporations negatively affect consumers we can't have a narrow view that only points to one company. I don't disagree with the premise of the thread. Apple is only out to make a profit. But I also think it's fair, and quite necessary, to look at all the other consumer goods we buy. We can't turn a blind eye to things we like. Cheers.

Posted from my awesome Classic.

Sure, if that is the topic. In this case, there is a specific company saying specific things that is the topic. This isn't a university course that would discuss all companies in a larger perspective.

/end discussion

[TgeekB]

Sure, if that is the topic. In this case, there is a specific company saying specific things that is the topic. This isn't a university course that would discuss all companies in a larger perspective.

/end discussion

Didn't really think it was that deep but no problem. Enjoy your day.

Posted from my awesome Classic.