[redlightblinking]

OK. All these other manufacturers are leaving money on the table.

Based on what? Are you making yet another guess?

Actual data, even though there is irrelevant, because you made some hypothetical equation/scenario that you think invalidates said data.

Posted via Z30

What data? You haven't provided any data, despite me asking for it, other than than the obvious observation that BlackBerry doesn't sell as much as it used to. And I didn't make any hypothetical equation or scenario.....you did.. Clearly you have trouble with basic logic.

Based on your "data", people have rejected security. People have rejected blinking lights. People have rejected universal inboxes. people have rejected replaceable batteries. People have rejected customization notifications. Or............have they?

Maybe they just rejected something else and all of those other things were part of the package. Something about baby and bathwater comes to mind.

[Supa_Fly1]

The typo is irrelevant. The slider is an answer to maximizing screen size and providing a good typing experience.

Posted via CB10

Slider isn't a response to anything. BlackBerry created the full qwerty keyboard slider several years ago with the Torch 9800/9810. Why is this even a discussion?!

I actually believe only BlackBerry did the vertical slider originally with a keyboard full qwerty that is.

Typo would've died out very soon as there is a LOT more innovative keyboards with better travel for iOS! You need to realize that the majority of iPhone users are just fine with the touch screen KB typing for short entry. Longer entry they'll goto a table or desk to do so.

Posted by BlackBerry accept no compromise!

[lnichols]

Based on what? Are you making yet another guess?



What data? You haven't provided any data, despite me asking for it, other than than the obvious observation that BlackBerry doesn't sell as much as it used to. And I didn't make any hypothetical equation or scenario.....you did.. Clearly you have trouble with basic logic.

Based on your "data", people have rejected security. People have rejected blinking lights. People have rejected universal inboxes. people have rejected replaceable batteries. People have rejected customization notifications. Or............have they?

Maybe they just rejected something else and all of those other things were part of the package. Something about baby and bathwater comes to mind.

You clearly don't even read what you type or don't apply the response to what you wrote. You were the one spouting off X, Y and Z, not me. The data is the declining sales figures of of BlackBerry PKB devices, the competition not putting out PKB devices, or licensing the technology.

If you want to go into particulars, the market has decided that removable batteries are not important. Most manufacturers, including BlackBerry have abandoned them (thank God because they would develop reboot issues). BIS was no more secure for non BIS hosted email than any other phone available, and BBM is no more secure, and maybe less secure than iMessage at the moment unless you buy BBM protected. So the security argument unless the phone is on BES is a losing argument.

BlackBerry's only growth with BBOS post 2009 was not due to any of the features you mentioned, it's was due to cheap BIS plans in countries with poor cellular data networks. Look at their rapid rise and collapse in Malaysia and Indonesia, or anywhere they saw rapid growth during that time. BBOS was the cheapest solution that worked in those areas. As networks matured and data dropped in price, then cheap devices were the differentiator, and cheap Android performed better than cheap BlackBerry in the features people wanted.

If PKB were so important a feature, then someone in Android would have made a PKB phone to differentiate from the sea of slabs. If all of the features mentioned were important enough, then BlackBerry wouldn't have lost customers like they did. I'm sure some were liked by some and some different one by others, but based on the competitions offerings, the public found features much more important than the ones you mentioned in their final buying decision.

I don't think that if a reputable company like Apple or Samsung, were to buy BlackBerry, and start churning out PKB phones on a device with apps and the features you chose to mention, that your going to see much difference in the device sales.

Again I have based my opinion based on all of the conference calls and trends that have been happening since 2008/9, as well as trends in the industry, and my observations being in IT for one of their customers that values security and you have your opinion based on whatever data you are looking at. Neither of us is going to convince the other so to continue the argument beyond this point isn't going to accomplish anything.

Posted via Z30

[redlightblinking]

You clearly don't even read what you type or don't apply the response to what you wrote.

If you're going to make a statement like this, as if to somehow imply you're somehow smarter at the subject than the author of it....it's customary to actually show in some way, shape or form.........how. I can't help but notice that you didn't do that.

You were the one spouting off X, Y and Z, not me.

"Spouting off". Hmm. How cute.

The data is the declining sales figures of of BlackBerry PKB devices, the competition not putting out PKB devices, or licensing the technology.

The data is only declining sales of BB devices, some of which happen to have a keyboard.

Competition doesn't necessarily have strong data either way EITHER, and is most likely comfortable with the status quo. I don't really blame them. If it ain't broke, don't tinker with it.

If you want to go into particulars, the market has decided that removable batteries are not important.

The market has no say in the matter. The market has clearly said they want to have a way to at least replace the power they lost during the day, thus the brisk sales of the pocket battery chargers that replace our loss of interchangeable batteries. The manufacturers have decided that removable batteries are less important than longer batter life. And since they can't do both equally as effectively, they've chosen to shove more power in the phones at the expense of the power being removable. Phones demand more power now, and this problem was inevitable. It doesn't mean people love having to search out a power plug for their white cord and have decided removable batteries isn't important to them. It's just that they have no choice.

BIS was no more secure for non BIS hosted email than any other phone available,

BIS was encrypted. Recently a Mexican Drug cartel was busted and the authorities displayed their older BIS BlackBerry's that they used. Gosh...I wonder why. Two countries tried to ban BlackBerry because they couldn't spy on people who used them.

and BBM is no more secure, and maybe less secure than iMessage at the moment unless you buy BBM protected.

BBM is also encrypted between BB devices. But BBM and BIS are not the only security advantages for BlackBerry unless you are a simple consumer customer.

BlackBerry's only growth with BBOS post 2009 was not due to any of the features you mentioned, it's was due to cheap BIS plans in countries with poor cellular data networks. Look at their rapid rise and collapse in Malaysia and Indonesia, or anywhere they saw rapid growth during that time. BBOS was the cheapest solution that worked in those areas. As networks matured and data dropped in price, then cheap devices were the differentiator, and cheap Android performed better than cheap BlackBerry in the features people wanted.

What does this have to do with anything other than proving my point?

If PKB were so important a feature, then someone in Android would have made a PKB phone to differentiate from the sea of slabs.

You're changing the argument. No one is making a claim that "a PKB is such an important feature, etc etc" which is a vague statement to begin with. The subject simply is: "do people still like using PKB's if they didn't have to give up everything else in the package?" Clearly the makers of the Typo believe this to be true.

If all of the features mentioned were important enough, then BlackBerry wouldn't have lost customers like they did. I'm sure some were liked by some and some different one by others, but based on the competitions offerings, the public found features much more important than the ones you mentioned in their final buying decision.

You keep demonstrating my point....and don't seem to even realize it. Your argument above is exactly why there is no definitive data to separate any one "favorite" feature from the package that BB users gave up with they switched to the phones that had one particular thing: apps. BB users now have options. Do they buy PKB more or slab BB's more?

I don't think that if a reputable company like Apple or Samsung, were to buy BlackBerry, and start churning out PKB phones on device with apps and the features you chose to mention, that your going to see much difference in the device sales.

Thank you for your opinion. I think it's certainly possible that this is correct, but also possible that it's not.

Again I have based my opinion based on all of the conference calls and trends that have been happening since 2008/9, as well as trends in the industry, and my observations being in IT for one of their customers that values security and you have your opinion based on whatever data you are looking at. Neither of us is going to convince the other so to continue the argument beyond this point isn't going to accomplish anything.

Posted via Z30

The difference is, you're trying to prove something without specific data, only your opinion, and I'm simply saying there is no specific data to prove something either way.

[BB-JAM215]

Even if typo was available, the touch captive keyboard of the slider would kick any other keyboards ****.Z10

There has been no indication from the devices shown at MWC in March, or statements made by BlackBerry that the Slider will have a touch keyboard.

[lnichols]

BIS was encrypted. Recently a Mexican Drug cartel was busted and the authorities displayed their older BIS BlackBerry's that they used. Gosh...I wonder why. Two countries tried to ban BlackBerry because they couldn't spy on people who used them.

BIS is encrypted phone to the BIS, decrypted, and encrypted from the BIS to the destination phone. BIS also used a weaker style common encryption key. How do you think BlackBerry is able to hand over BBM conversations to authorities? If it were encrypted phone to phone. With a key specific to that transmission it would not be possible. Also I clearly stated only traffic that stays on the BIS is "safe", but not if BlackBerry decides to hand it over to someone or has given them a back door because all traffic is decrypted at the BIS to be processed. Any email accounts like Gmail and such are no more secure than on BIS devices, than BB10 devices or the competition. In fact BB10 and BIS BBOS device don't support S/MIME for encryption of emails and the competition is doing this.

BBM is also encrypted between BB devices. But BBM and BIS are not the only security advantages for BlackBerry unless you are a simple consumer customer.

Only with BBM protected, paid service, or on BES. Standard BBM is encrypted as I described above. IMessage actually encrypts the messages from phone to phone standard, with a very good algorithm, therefore making it more secure than standard BBM. BES BBM would be more secure because the BES owner is in control of keys, BBM protected for non BES users should be equivalent to standard iMessage as it is doing the same thing.



Posted via Z30

[RyanGermann]

The data is the declining sales figures of of BlackBerry PKB devices, the competition not putting out PKB devices, or licensing the technology.

RLB said it: sales of ALL BB devices are "declining", not JUST PKB devices. You don't HAVE the data that breaks out the sales of PKB vs full slab devices. You have data that shows how many millions of iOS devices and Samsung-brand Android devices are sold, and all happen to be full slab devices, so you ERRONEOUSLY state that it is BECAUSE BB devices have PKBs that the sales are declining, which is a completely UNSUPPORTABLE conclusion based on the AVAILABLE data: "correlation is not causation". Why WHY do you keep insisting that things are "facts" that absolutely aren't. What is up with you on this constant assertion based on NO data.

People liking iOS devices doesn't mean there's no market for PKB devices. BB's reputation being in the pooper doesn't mean people hate PKB devices. Why do you keep repeating that unsubstantiated nonsense? redlightblinking might be banned for one reason or another at the moment, but that doesn't mean he's incorrect on this issue. You draw conclusions based on one or two factors that may be part of "the problem" but your insistence on stating what is THE problem based on "data" is, I have to admit, maddening.

You're acting like the Fox News of BlackBerry: keep repeating unsubstantiated "facts" over an over in an effort to make them "true". I don't get why you feel the need to do it, but you do it at every single opportunity. Forgive me for calling you out on it. Maybe you'll stop.

I have said repeatedly that I REALLY SINCERELY WANT BlackBerry to release a powerful competitive full slab device with a fast CPU and great screen, and they should do it AS SOON AS POSSIBLE... but I don't take people lining up to buy iPhone 6s or Samsung Galaxy S6s as ANY indication that people will give a darn about a BB10 full slab device, because it's STILL 'impaired' by running BB10 and not having apps and all that same stuff that are the reasons why other BB10 devices haven't sold (and the Q and Passport series have the additional problem of having a SQUARE screen: the keyboard has less to do with the negative appeal of the Q and Passport than the square screen, IMO... but again, I have no data, so I don't claim my opinion as fact).

[MarsupilamiX]

The typo keyboard was a response to Apple not having a keyboard.....of any kind......like a BlackBerry.

So ANY BlackBerry with a keyboard (including a slider) is not the "response" to the Typo keyboard....it's the reason Typo came up with it to begin with.

Otherwise your logic suggests the Classic and the Passport were also responses to the Typo, as well as any other keyboard BlackBerry in the future.

I am still not sure why it makes me uneasy to agree with you...
But yes, logically you are correct.

I agree but if BlackBerry doesnt advertise, then people still see the typo as the best keyboard alternative.

Posted via CB10

Does anybody truly believe that the Typo, or similar accessories, actually sold well?
Because... They didn't...

And I can promise you that pretty much nobody cares about a keyboard accessory for his/her iPhone (tablets excluded. There Bluetooth keyboards make sense).

Not exactly. People make this flawed argument all the time. Basically saying that because of lack of sales of X that means people don't like Y. When the reality is that people don't like X because it doesn't have Z and not necessarily because there has been a wholesale rejection of Y as indicated by low sales of X. Confused yet?

The Basics: people may not be buying X (BlackBerry) for a handful of reasons, but in my opinion it's basically because of (misguided) opinions that BlackBerry:
- Has no apps (which is partially true)
- is the old BlackBerry's that don't run anything like the "revolutionary" iPhones, etc (which is completely untrue, but marketing rules the world)
- Is not making phones anymore, or is about to go out of business, be aquired by Burger King, etc. etc (also untrue).

These are all part of Z.

None of these reasons directly indicate that people who choose not to buy BlackBerry:
A: reject PKBs (Y) altogether
B: don't ever get frustrated with touch keyboards
C: used to have a BlackBerry or still do (like Ryan Seacrest, Typo, et al) and still miss the keyboard functionality
C: wouldn't at least try a PKB or even go back to one if they could be past the 3 things I listed above that are more likely the reason for their rejection of BB.

The false conclusion is that because people simply aren't buying BlackBerry very much, then...........gosh.......geez.........it must be because people collectively got together and.......as a group......rejected keyboards, and that's pretty much the only reason why BlackBerry doesn't sell........even though BlackBerry makes non-keyboard phones that sell just as poorly (or worse) than their Keyboard phones.

Thank you!
I can finally disagree again!

You do not need more indicators than the 2 following, in the current market:

BlackBerry owns 100% of the keyboard market and isn't profitable.

NOBODY apart from BlackBerry even bothers with keyboard phones.
When you have 30 (?) mobile device manufacturers in the world and only one makes keyboard devices, but can't even sustain themselves with 100% marketshare in that given niche...
The Elefant in the room seems to be obvious to recognise.

It really shouldn't be hard to understand that this issue is form-factor related.
Until touchscreens can emulate a physical keyboard through some innovative tech (meaning that the touchscreen can literally change its shape), the shortcomings of the form-factor itself are just as much of an issue as the app gap.

When nobody makes keyboard phones, in of the most competitive markets of our time, it tells the story by itself. If it would be a sale increasing differentiator, then there would be more keyboard phones out there.
As it is now, a keyboard is a negative differentiator.

Arguing against that just shows how disconnected you are from the current market realities.
Maybe it's a generational gap and you simply do not understand the market anymore?

RLB said it: sales of ALL BB devices are "declining", not JUST PKB devices. You don't HAVE the data that breaks out the sales of PKB vs full slab devices. You have data that shows how many millions of iOS devices and Samsung-brand Android devices are sold, and all happen to be full slab devices, so you ERRONEOUSLY state that it is BECAUSE BB devices have PKBs that the sales are declining, which is a completely UNSUPPORTABLE conclusion based on the AVAILABLE data: "correlation is not causation". Why WHY do you keep insisting that things are "facts" that absolutely aren't. What is up with you on this constant assertion based on NO data.

People liking iOS devices doesn't mean there's no market for PKB devices. BB's reputation being in the pooper doesn't mean people hate PKB devices. Why do you keep repeating that unsubstantiated nonsense? redlightblinking might be banned for one reason or another at the moment, but that doesn't mean he's incorrect on this issue. You draw conclusions based on one or two factors that may be part of "the problem" but your insistence on stating what is THE problem based on "data" is, I have to admit, maddening.

You're acting like the Fox News of BlackBerry: keep repeating unsubstantiated "facts" over an over in an effort to make them "true". I don't get why you feel the need to do it, but you do it at every single opportunity. Forgive me for calling you out on it. Maybe you'll stop.

I have said repeatedly that I REALLY SINCERELY WANT BlackBerry to release a powerful competitive full slab device with a fast CPU and great screen, and they should do it AS SOON AS POSSIBLE... but I don't take people lining up to buy iPhone 6s or Samsung Galaxy S6s as ANY indication that people will give a darn about a BB10 full slab device, because it's STILL 'impaired' by running BB10 and not having apps and all that same stuff that are the reasons why other BB10 devices haven't sold (and the Q and Passport series have the additional problem of having a SQUARE screen: the keyboard has less to do with the negative appeal of the Q and Passport than the square screen, IMO... but again, I have no data, so I don't claim my opinion as fact).

People in these forums always say how it's useless to go Android because the marketplace is so competitive and nobody makes money except for Samsung.

So, let's say I am HTC/Sony. And I think about how to raise my profits and device sales.
Since, according to you, the PKB market is still a thing, wouldn't it be logical if HTC/Sony tries to sell keyboard phones?
Something Samsung and Apple aren't doing?
Something that would instantly make them the only Android manufacturer with PKB phones?
Wouldn't that improve sales?

It didn't happen in the last 4-7 years, so what does it tell you?
Either that you and Redlightblinking are more intelligent than the combined workforce of 30 smartphone producers....
Or that both of you are completely wrong and do not understand the relevant data.

It's either or.

[RyanGermann]

I am still not sure why it makes me uneasy to agree with you...
But yes, logically you are correct.



Does anybody truly believe that the Typo, or similar accessories, actually sold well?
Because... They didn't...

And I can promise you that pretty much nobody cares about a keyboard accessory for his/her iPhone (tablets excluded. There Bluetooth keyboards make sense).



Thank you!
I can finally disagree again!

You do not need more indicators than the 2 following, in the current market:

BlackBerry owns 100% of the keyboard market and isn't profitable.

NOBODY apart from BlackBerry even bothers with keyboard phones.
When you have 30 (?) mobile device manufacturers in the world and only one makes keyboard devices, but can't even sustain themselves with 100% marketshare in that given niche...
The Elefant in the room seems to be obvious to recognise.

It really shouldn't be hard to understand that this issue is form-factor related.
Until touchscreens can emulate a physical keyboard through some innovative tech (meaning that the touchscreen can literally change its shape), the shortcomings of the form-factor itself are just as much of an issue as the app gap.

When nobody makes keyboard phones, in of the most competitive markets of our time, it tells the story by itself. If it would be a sale increasing differentiator, then there would be more keyboard phones out there.
As it is now, a keyboard is a negative differentiator.

Arguing against that just shows how disconnected you are from the current market realities.
Maybe it's a generational gap and you simply do not understand the market anymore?



People in these forums always say how it's useless to go Android because the marketplace is so competitive and nobody makes money except for Samsung.

So, let's say I am HTC/Sony. And I think about how to raise my profits and device sales.
Since, according to you, the PKB market is still a thing, wouldn't it be logical if HTC/Sony tries to sell keyboard phones?
Something Samsung and Apple aren't doing?
Something that would instantly make them the only Android manufacturer with PKB phones?
Wouldn't that improve sales?

It didn't happen in the last 4-7 years, so what does it tell you?
Either that you and Redlightblinking are more intelligent than the combined workforce of 30 smartphone producers....
Or that both of you are completely wrong and do not understand the relevant data.

It's either or.

TL;DR but i'm sure the gist is 'cake is made with flour and flour is a simple carbohydrate therefore if people would stop eating cake no one would get type 2 diabetes.'

If there was a point to 'debating' these issues, I might, but for some repeating the same flawed logic at every opportunity is some kind of validation, and I don't get it.... but you just may be the world champ. You're #winning! Congratulations!

We BlackBerry fans are going to have to be patient to see if Chen's strategy bears fruit: unfortunately it is the naysayers that are usually right, but if you advocate for ANY strategy meant to improve BB's fortunes (like 'BlackBerry should put effort on undifferentiated full slab devices rather than PKB') when you ALSO are wrong, what then?

Doesn't the very fact that the Typo keyboard existed and there was interest not contradict the anti-PKB attitude, and reinforce the unfortunate "it isn't PKB devices that don't sell, it's BB10 devices that don't sell" reality?

The only cure for what ails BlackBerry is time and constant but measurable improvements to the bottom line, and a bit more marketing as Chen has said will be more visible in the upcoming months. I think at this point it doesn't really matter what devices they release, but I eagerly await the slider.

Huge leaps in logic don't indicate intelligence: quite the opposite, I think. Facts not in evidence? Only two smartphone vendors make significant profit on smartphones... supposedly one of those two makes the lion's share of that. so those other 30 smartphone vendors continually failing is a data point of its own, n'est ce-pas? From that, one might draw the conclusion that those 30 vendors are jam packed with idiots whose intelligence is questionable... but that is not a conclusion I draw, because I try to avoid drawing conclusions with faulty logic.

Watch out, or this might be you one day!



and because you're #winning, you get to choose which of the two featured characters fates may befall you!

[stevobbm]

The only response the typo will ever get is a legal one

Via Passport 

[Old_Mil]

It is an answer to a question no one is asking.

Posted via CB10

[midnightdoom]

The typo keyboard was a response to Apple not having a keyboard.....of any kind......like a BlackBerry.
.

Yah that's what I took from typo, he wanted an iPhone ecosystem but he wanted a BlackBerry keyboard.

Posted via CB10

[TgeekB]

I think there will always be a nostalgic feeling from a lot of people for a pkb. We still use them on desktops and laptops. People do get frustrated with vkb on most phones but it's all there really is to chose from, except BlackBerry which hasn't advertised since 1972. I could see some people coming back.

Be classically hip with the BlackBerry Classic

[Bbnivende]

Does the Typo double type ? If not maybe they should have won their law suit. BlackBerry / Typo should settle on the basis of BlackBerry being able to make this case for their own Z line phones ( or Typo would do it).

Edit : OK BlackBerry won. Maybe they should make a Typo case for their own all touch. Maybe bring back the 9860 design as a difference maker. Maybe remake the Q10 with a 3.5 inch screen and a Q5 keyboard (no double type).