[early2bed]

Chen has been quoted as saying that he'd be happy with 10 million in annual sales. Will that be enough? I'm not sure. Maybe if the yield per device was high enough.

It's hard to imagine that 10 million in sales per year is going to be worth doing. Let's say you spend $200 million a year for smartphone marketing and $200 million a year for R&D (not much), that's $40 per phone for just for those two alone. Most of the profit goes to Foxconn which is doing most of the design, manufacturing and taking the inventory risk.

This may work for Amazon and Google because they have so many other ways to make money off of people connected to their ecosystem.

Moreover, are you really going to keep a billion dollars worth of smartphone patents just to sell that many phones?

[anon(5828343)]

It's hard to imagine that 10 million in sales per year is going to be worth doing. Let's say you spend $200 million a year for smartphone marketing and $200 million a year for R&D (not much), that's $40 per phone for just for those two alone. Most of the profit goes to Foxconn which is doing most of the design, manufacturing and taking the inventory risk.

This may work for Amazon and Google because they have so many other ways to make money off of people connected to their ecosystem.

Moreover, are you really going to keep a billion dollars worth of smartphone patents just to sell that many phones?

Agreed.

I think Chen is setting a low bar so he can claim success whatever he does. 10 million devices can't make any sense by any business measure for the simple arithmetic you described. To pretend that somehow BBRY can stay still from an R&D standpoint and still remain relevant is foolish.

[VR6]

If you sold the exact same iPhone, one that can connect to the App Store and one that connected only to BBW the App Store iPhone would sell much more as well. It's not about which phone is better, it's just that Apple is now a standard with millions of users already invested in their eco system (music, video and app purchases). They will never leave.

[blee4]

Short answer is "economies of scale".

So while it is true that BBRY should not and, frankly, cannot compete with Apple and Samsung any longer, it is equally true that BBRY can't simply ignore its market position and produce devices for a smaller and smaller market niche. Niche products tend to command a higher price because their cost of manufacturing is higher (due to lack of economies of scale) and because their specialized application allows for a price premium.

Actually you bring up a very good point Apple before their come back (2001 on ward) was in a very niche market, they were in education, publishing and creative arts mainly. They did and still do command a very high price for their products.


Posted via my Q10

[RubberChicken76]

Apple sold 43.5 M phones in just last quarter. Why BB can't sell at least 4 M ???

Fear of company longevity
Brand perception and misperception
Lack of available apps
Carrier support
Marketing dollars to spend

I don't think "actual quality of the devices or OS" really factors much into it really.

[Laura Knotek]

Is BB10 that hard to figure out? I guess maybe when don't get to go thru the setup and don't get the introduction. Otherwise it's pretty simple.

That might be true, but if a potential customer doesn't see that when he or she looks at a device in a store, there is a good possibility that customer is lost forever based upon initial experience.





Sent from my Nokia Lumia 920 using Tapatalk

[RubberChicken76]

That might be true, but if a potential customer doesn't see that when he or she looks at a device in a store, there is a good possibility that customer is lost forever based upon initial experience.

The point is good that they may not bother, but honestly - the same thing applies when switching between any platforms right now. iOS is sufficiently different from Windows Phone which is sufficiently different from Android.

The challenge I maintain is not "ease of use", but rather "unwillingness to change what from is familiar."





Sent from my Nokia Lumia 920 using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

[early2bed]

Fear of company longevity
Brand perception and misperception
Lack of available apps
Carrier support
Marketing dollars to spend

I don't think "actual quality of the devices or OS" really factors much into it really.

In other words, "A this is a pretty good phone if you're not afraid of the company going out of business soon, don't mind that it's a Blackberry, don't want a lot of apps, are willing to order it off contract, and don't mind that you never see any ads for it."

[kbz1960]

That might be true, but if a potential customer doesn't see that when he or she looks at a device in a store, there is a good possibility that customer is lost forever based upon initial experience.





Sent from my Nokia Lumia 920 using Tapatalk

Yep, I agree with that. If a store even has one to try it is probably setup so someone that knows nothing would be confused when a minute with the tutorial would fix that.

[Bbnivende]

BB has essentially given up on marketing to consumers here in North America. Perhaps they can emulate the success of the Nokia lower end models in other markets with the Z3 and hopefully other cheap but good products. Cheap but good seems to be the way ahead. Either that or high end products or both. Currently their products (in the stores) are still too expensive relative to their product.

[Nicholas Kathrein]

Is BB10 that hard to figure out? I guess maybe when don't get to go thru the setup and don't get the introduction. Otherwise it's pretty simple.

Our stores in the U.S don't even have BB10 phones but if they did there are plenty of people trying all the phones. Normal people who aren't there with a specific phone in mind will leave that BB10 phone they are playing with in less than a minute if they can't figure it out. There are studies in this.

[Laura Knotek]

The point is good that they may not bother, but honestly - the same thing applies when switching between any platforms right now. iOS is sufficiently different from Windows Phone which is sufficiently different from Android.

The challenge I maintain is not "ease of use", but rather "unwillingness to change what from is familiar."





Sent from my Nokia Lumia 920 using Tapatalk

[/QUOTE]




I don't think it is so much unwillingness to change, but rather lack of familiarity with how to use the UI, since the device was already set up, so there is no explanation of the gestures. I could easily pick up an Android or iPhone and use it in a store, which would not make me have an initial displeasing experience. First impressions count. Most people will not consider something that gives a first impression of being confusing or difficult.





Sent from my Nokia Lumia 920 using Tapatalk

[RubberChicken76]

In other words, "A this is a pretty good phone if you're not afraid of the company going out of business soon, don't mind that it's a Blackberry, don't want a lot of apps, are willing to order it off contract, and don't mind that you never see any ads for it."

That's the way the world sees it, unfortunately. In some cases, there fear may be greater than the reality but look at all the times you read a thread where someone says, "this sales person/employer/spouse/friend told me they heard BlackBerry was going out of business".

Even if BlackBerry actually has most of the apps that most people use on a regular basis (they actually do), try to find a review that doesn't point out the difference in raw numbers or draw attention to the fact that it doesn't have instagram or shazam.

The apps thing actually ties into the marketing thing. Forget the fact that BlackBerry can't outspend Samsung or Apple, even though they did spend hundreds of millions on marketing last year. Think about every commercial that says, "try our app for iPhone and Android" and all the free publicity that brings to those platforms. It reinforces again and again and again the "app gap", even if most people won't use most of the apps on a regular basis.

[RubberChicken76]

I don't think it is so much unwillingness to change, but rather lack of familiarity with how to use the UI, since the device was already set up, so there is no explanation of the gestures. I could easily pick up an Android or iPhone and use it in a store, which would not make me have an initial displeasing experience.

Interesting. I know my first experiences using Android were very displeasing, as were several friends who switched from iOS. They absolutely hated it.

[exiledcanadian]

Yes but the companies you mentioned AREN'T in financial trouble. Your argument doesn't hold water because there aren't enough people that "prefer" Blackberry to keep it in business based on the current trajectory.

Which is precisely the reason why BlackBerry will be:
a) a niche product in specific industries like healthcare;
b) a reborn consumer product but ONLY if they have something truly revolutionary;
c) sold off in parts before the end of 2015 or:
d) bankrupt by the end of 2015.

Marketing concepts are universal (like the laws of physics) and don't change because a business is in trouble. You have to provide something people want. Right now, they don't want BlackBerry and that is why they are in financial trouble. It's not a conspiracy by the media or the carriers and it is not an ignorant public. There was positive talk about BB10 when it came out and the consumer market decided it didn't meet their wants, needs and demands.

So the question should be "what does the consumer want and need and demand." You need to focus on their daily activities and figure out what behavior would be enhanced by a feature that is not currently on a phone. That's what Jobs did. That's what apps do. Once you figure that out, you build a product to meet that demand. The PRECISE REASON why BlackBerry tanked was because Balsillie and Lazaridis did the exact opposite. They dismissed the iPhone when it came out and THEY decided what the consumer market should need and should want. They stuck to keyboard phones because they believed it was better for the consumer regardless of what the consumer thought. It didn't take long for them to fall behind and start playing "catch-up." BlackBerry is a case study for MBA Marketing students on what NOT to do. I know because we discussed it in my MBA program. No one in class had a beef with BlackBerry or hated it. They just all agreed that it offered niothing better than the other phones that people would want. It doesn't matter if security is so good that it makes BlackBerry the Fort Knox of phones. It is not a demand of the majority of consumers.

It doesn't matter if it has a bigger screen or a faster processor or top-notch security or this techie feature or that one. That's what PEOPLE HERE think they should want. All the marketing in the world is not going to change the perceptions of the consumer if you don't give them something they want. They couldn't care less about what you think they should want because THEY are the ones who will be consuming the product so THEY will decide what they want.

This is Marketing/Market Research 101. Just Google "marketing needs wants demands" and you will get a thousand scientific papers on the behavior of consumers. It doesn't change because of the financial standing of a company. Consumers don't care if companies go out of business. As long as they get what they want, they'll quickly forget it even existed.

[togarika]

I like my BlackBerry because of the physical keyboard and it is my understanding that the Q10 should be considered the best within that niche. I am at a loss as to how BlackBerry might market their Z phones even if they had the money to do so. What are the selling points you would like BlackBerry to emphasis?

I would say that this is a key question for BlackBerry right now as they market the Z3 in Indonesia. They need to get some traction going.

Selling points? I guess that's the big question. Physical keyboard could be one, but I don't think its enough to sell millions. I think BlackBerry's best bet is mobile computing. A mobile device that can replace your PC/Laptop. A mobile device that can do it all. All they have to do now is deliver.

[matador22]

BlackBerry makes excellent phones. The problem is that they're not compelling enough to make someone switch platforms. Active frames is cool but a normal iphone/android user is like "so?". Anyway BlackBerry will continue. And government finance ppl will keep buying them. But I bet soon only 2 major carriers in the us will have them. And only limited models. How much abuse can a fan of a platform take? Haha

I wish them the best.

Posted via CB10

[CrackBerry Kevin]

Momentum is a POWERFUL force. And, it works in both directions.

BlackBerry had it in the upward direction for a lot of years and it worked big time in their favor. Despite some really poor products (Pearl Flip, Storm), they still kept selling and growing because of the positive momentum they had. Even though some products were misses, the sales & marketing momentum kept things humming while consumers perceived the company as reputable and the products overall as being good.

Then things caught up with them and that momentum over the course of a couple years slowed... BlackBerry 7 devices took forever to come to market, the PlayBook launched as a mess, millions experienced the Storm (and most were not happy, though some loved it).

Eventually the positive momentum stopped and for the past couple of years the momentum it has now been going in the opposite direction, and it's a hard force to turn around on a dime. The same way that BlackBerry benefited from a positive HALO effect during its best years (despite some less than stellar individual products), now it works the opposite. Even though there are some great products on the market, the overall perception overlooks the individual successes.

So it's not that BlackBerry's products are so bad that nobody wants them. It's that the damage around the brand (at least as so far as it goes with the average consumer) has simply taken the company off largely off the consumer's radar (made worse by lagging carrier support).

There's still hope they can get their mojo back and the momentum going in the right direction again, but it will take TIME, GREAT PRODUCTS, GREAT MARKETING and likely a little luck too (right product at the right time). It's not an overnight thing. A really stellar product could definitely get a lot of attention (one overnight product hits and its a success), but I think to make a real change to momentum you need to deliver a track record of it.

As mentioned above too, the cost of switching platforms (time, effort, money) is very real. We're starting to a hit point in the smartphone space where things are saturated. Another year and 95% of people in North America will have a smartphone. That means in order to get people onto BlackBerry, they need to leave whatever else they are on. It's doable, but it means that whatever BlackBerry offers has to be compelling enough to make you want to go through the pain of switching (or customers of other platforms have to be dissatisfied enough that they seek a change). Tech enthusiasts don't care - we can switch up all the time or own multiple devices, but for an average person they'll often prefer to just stick to what they know. Another challenge that needs to be overcome. Doable, but gotta keep hustling to make it happen!

[Bbnivende]

I don't think it is so much unwillingness to change, but rather lack of familiarity with how to use the UI, since the device was already set up, so there is no explanation of the gestures. I could easily pick up an Android or iPhone and use it in a store, which would not make me have an initial displeasing experience. First impressions count. Most people will not consider something that gives a first impression of being confusing or difficult.





Sent from my Nokia Lumia 920 using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

First you would need to find a BlackBerry that is plugged in and working.
Next, find one that is actually connected to the internet.
Next, try to get the phone out of the insanely stupid demo mode.
Next, which gesture to get to the widgets ?
.. oh then you would have to know how to set the browser settings to display the font big enough so that you can read the text. etc etc

Or

You can walk over to the Apple display where usually the phones are working and most people can figure it out immediately.

[Bbnivende]

Selling points? I guess that's the big question. Physical keyboard could be one, but I don't think its enough to sell millions. I think BlackBerry's best bet is mobile computing. A mobile device that can replace your PC/Laptop. A mobile device that can do it all. All they have to do now is deliver.

Maybe an app so that you could plug in your BB10 into the USB port of your Laptop and operate the laptop ??

[collinc93]

no BB10 phones are the best kept secret. We are keeping it secret because we dont want too many people to find out how good the phones are, and come over in droves....no we want to keep the uniqueness to ourselves so that when people see us they wonder find us strange and exotic.....(tinfoil hat on)..and OP all answers before mine are redundant

[daveomatic]

as i've said many times, the problem isn't the phone: The os, while it has some problems, is decently competitive on the consumer market, and the hardware is sufficient, though certainly not cutting-edge.

The problem is that people aren't just buying phones, they're buying into a platform and ecosystem. Judging just on the phones themselves, bb is a little behind in many areas, but ahead in a couple, but when the camera pulls back and looks at the platform as a whole, bb's platform is miniscule and weak.

ios has itunes for media, the app store chock full of quality apps (many that don't exist on any other platform, even android), gets most apps first, has a suite of cloud services that are highly integrated, and has a range of market-leading devices, from phones to tablets to laptops to desktops, plus a number of accessories. The brand itself is a premium brand, is backed by the wealthiest company in tech, and apple ads are top-notch.

android has over a hundred oems, making devices to fit any need and price-point (phones, tablets, wearables, car stereos, etc.), has the biggest app store, a good and constantly improving media market, has some of the best cloud-services available anywhere (tightly integrated), is backed by a huge company that invests billions in innovations both near and far-term, and is even open-source, allowing an unprecedented level of customization for those who desire it. Android oems spend tens of billions to advertise the devices which all drive users and traffic to the android platform, in addition to google's minimal but excellent efforts on its own behalf.

windows phone is running an os that is moving closer and closer to being the same across pcs, tablets, phones, and other devices (including xbox), and whose app stores are starting to be integrated, has microsoft office (the #1 app suite for business), a range of cloud services, and is also backed by a huge, wealthy company.

bb is largely seen as a company in decline (if not gone already), who had a failed launch of their new platform, which has lost the company billions of dollars and tens of millions of users, and further damaged the brand, which the company foolishly adopted the name of the entire company. The phones themselves only recently became competitive, a year after launch, with the 10.2 release, but the ecosystem is weak with no 1st party cloud services, few native apps (many of which are feature-incomplete and have a low priority for updates compared to other platforms), weak media support, and is limited device-wise to a handful of phones only. The company is small, in financial trouble, has effectively ceded the consumer market entirely (few carrier stores actually stock the phones anymore) and placed its hopes on a longshot (enterprise & emerging markets), and has a history of making some of the most puzzling and ineffective ads in all of tech.

That's what the consumer market sees. If cb users divorced their emotions and looked at the situation dispassionately, they'd see the same thing, and it would be easy to understand the consumer market's perception of bb's platform. And these days, for most consumers, the device itself is not nearly enough, as it is merely a window into a platform. Aside from the platform's offerings, all devices to the basics: Phone, text, and email communications, so those are no longer factors of differentiation to most people.

this!!!!!!........................right here!!!!!!!!!!

[matador22]

Many of my friends just fear they're buying a phone from a company that just has too little market share. Developers continually release their latest apps for apple/android first. BlackBerry gets it months/years later or in most cases never. Sideloading is a good solution but it feels temporary. And there's not that same "feeling" of a native app built for your OS. If BlackBerry cannot come back from their dismal market share then what place do they have in the market? You can't even try out demo units at the store? They hardly sell accessories at the stores? It just seems like a downward spiral.

Posted via CB10

[JeepBB]

Is BB10 that hard to figure out? I guess maybe when don't get to go thru the setup and don't get the introduction. Otherwise it's pretty simple.

Ah, but you had an advantage over most BB10 buyers in being a Playbook owner (IIRC)

The gestures may be simple, but they aren't necessarily intuitive. And if a potential buyer picks up a BB10 phone in the shop and can't make it go... They won't hang around to ask anyone, they already feel foolish enough... They'll just quietly put the phone down and make their way to the exit whilst mentally crossing BB10 off their list. That's just human nature.

When I first had my PB, I couldn't get it to wake-up by swiping across the screen. I knew that was the gesture to use, coz I saw it mentioned here on CB. Could I get it to work?! ... Arrrgh! Eventually, I realised that the swipe had to touch both bezels or it didn't work. Simple when you know how, right?

If I'd been in a shop looking to buy a Playbook, and been unable to make it wake up... I wouldn't have bought it. And, given the frequent stories about BB10 phones being returned shortly after purchase, I wonder if they faced a similar experience.

[bborgimicks]

Personally, I don't care how many phones Apple sold over BB.

BB is not the only cell phone maker trying to figure out how to KEEP current customers AND gain (re-gain) new ones. My brother in law was a die-hard Apple fan. But when the 5S came out...he wasn't impressed. In his words, "they were not being innovative enough". This is from someone who swore by Apple a few years back. It may be a smart move by BB to focus on keeping their current customer base happy and winning back previous BB users. There are likely more ex-BB users like myself who are just looking for an excuse to go back to BB. Perhaps the BB Classic (Q20) will be just the push they need.

Having said that, as a newly returnie to BB, I wish the negativity about BB would not be so prevalent on the forums. We get enough crap from the world of flaky users who will switch phones at a drop of a hat...just because of some shiny new feature. Just saying...