1. Emaderton3's Avatar
    You are right in saying that they are making a mistake giving up on the OS but given the moves they made over the past year and a half I think it is too late to do anything different. Chen has painted the company into a corner.
    How much time do they need? Let's say the next update brought significant changes to the OS, and every website made their top story that it is far better than the other platforms. I still don't think you will find tens of millions of people switching over. Most people have phones that now also work with their tablets, computers, and tvs. It's not just about switching from your iPhone for many people. They also have iPads, Macs, Apple TV, Apple watches, etc. It's hard to drop out of an ecosystem if you have everything working nicely together.

    Posted via CB10
    10-07-15 09:06 AM
  2. Bluenoser63's Avatar
    I would argue they do have a long term strategy now, it's just not in mobile hardware. They have positioned themselves to be able to manage other platforms and provide enterprise and security solutions. If switching to Android keeps their hardware involved in this new direction, then great. Otherwise, I would imagine they will become exclusively a software company.

    Posted via CB10
    And once they are just a software company, then they have so much competition in the MDM and communications that they will get crushed. All software companies that BlackBerry has to compete with will be on the same level. BES was only good because of the BlackBerry phones. Now that they are Android, they don't have a hook anymore.
    10-07-15 09:22 AM
  3. stots's Avatar
    Who says bb10 is dead????

    Posted via CB10
    10-07-15 09:24 AM
  4. Bluenoser63's Avatar
    Who says bb10 is dead????

    Posted via CB10
    BlackBerry.
    JeepBB, DrBoomBotz, TgeekB and 1 others like this.
    10-07-15 09:26 AM
  5. z10Jobe's Avatar
    BlackBerry.
    Ummm.... no they don't. But nice try.

    Posted via CB10
    10-07-15 09:47 AM
  6. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    What I don't understand is why blackberry can't have the current os10 with android, you know so the phone operates just like current blackberry devices but but has the Google play services so all the android apps work as they should and call it android??
    Very simply, because Google Services belongs to Google, and you don't get to just take someone else's software or service and use it on your device as you like. You must license that software or those services, and Google has rules about what you can do with them, that are designed to reduce fragmentation of Android.

    How would you have felt if other companies had, say, written BBM clients for their OSs, with no BB involvement or licensing, back when BBM was the messaging king? BB fans (and BB themselves) would have been furious, and Cease & Desist orders would have gone right out. This is no different.

    Read more here:

    http://forums.crackberry.com/blackbe...-store-953753/
    10-07-15 10:10 AM
  7. RyanGermann's Avatar
    Very simply, because Google Services belongs to Google, and you don't get to just take someone else's software or service and use it on your device as you like. You must license that software or those services, and Google has rules about what you can do with them, that are designed to reduce fragmentation of Android.
    The problem isn't even that Google Mobile Services are proprietary: it's that many popular so-called Android apps are tied to Google Mobile Services to the extent that complying with AOSP rules isn't enough to make these apps run on what are technically and by definition "Android Operating System" devices. Without Google Mobile Services, a significant number of important apps won't run.

    What would BB10's prospects be like if BB10 devices could access the Google Play Store, without having Google Mobile Services installed, and all apps in the Google Play store would be available and would run on ALL Android devices, but Google's own proprietary apps would NOT be available (Google Mail, Hangouts, Google Maps, Google Earth, etc)? What would BB10's fortunes have been, hmmm?

    I'm just waiting for the FTC to wake up and deal with this, because calling it "anti-competitive" is a bit of an understatement with 83% global market share. (And no, I'm not going to debate whether or not 'free enterprise' justifies this behaviour: Google sued so Microsoft would have to let users choose Google Chrome for their default Web browser, so now that the shoe's on the other foot, I'm totally not interested in hearing how this is "justified" by Google because of their technical excellence or whatever: it's along the same lines as what Microsoft was doing that got the whole tech community up in arms, so defending Google because they 'aren't evil like Microsoft', is hypocrisy of the tallest order.)
    theone06 likes this.
    10-07-15 10:16 AM
  8. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Google's Play Store and Google Services were never part of AOSP, and AOSP were never promised access to them. You act as if everyone is somehow "owed" access to the store and services that Google has spent billions to develop. That's BS! Google doesn't owe anyone access to the Play Store or Google Services on their devices. If you believe they do, how do you justify this belief? And why can Apple keep others out of its own store? How can Microsoft?
    TGR1 likes this.
    10-07-15 11:06 AM
  9. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    Google's Play Store and Google Services were never part of AOSP, and AOSP were never promised access to them. You act as if everyone is somehow "owed" access to the store and services that Google has spent billions to develop. That's BS! Google doesn't owe anyone access to the Play Store or Google Services on their devices. If you believe they do, how do you justify this belief? And why can Apple keep others out of its own store? How can Microsoft?
    What you're saying is true, UNLESS it violates anti-trust law. If their practices are found to be anti-competitive, they could be forced to change their practices. Think about the phone companies. At one time, AT&T was the only phone company in the US, but they were broken up. Also, Microsoft used to make it impossible to separate Internet Explorer from Windows, inhibiting choice of browsers. That was ruled anti-competitive and they were forced to make it easy to change browser preferences in Windows.

    It's very conceivable that Google could be forced to make Play Services available to companies outside the OHA, or that the OHA could be forced to accept changes if it's found to inhibit free and open competition.

    Once a company starts to acquire monopoly-type power, it is subject to anti-trust legal scrutiny. It's a fundamental consumer protection in a free market, because, by definition, unrestrained monopolistic powers inhibit competition, innovation, and, ultimately, consumers and the economy.

    Posted via CB10
    app_Developer and Allanon89 like this.
    10-07-15 11:40 AM
  10. RyanGermann's Avatar
    Google's Play Store and Google Services were never part of AOSP, and AOSP were never promised access to them. You act as if everyone is somehow "owed" access to the store and services that Google has spent billions to develop. That's BS! Google doesn't owe anyone access to the Play Store or Google Services on their devices. If you believe they do, how do you justify this belief? And why can Apple keep others out of its own store? How can Microsoft?
    No, the fact that "Android" apps rely on GMS and without GMS apps can't run on 'Android' is the issue. When Apple or Microsoft have 83% market share in devices they would be subject to the same thing.

    I get that you will defend Google's business practices 'til the bitter end, but at this stage, Google is using it's "monopoly position" in a number of lines of business to their advantage. The question is whether or not you believe Google has a "monopoly position" in any lines of business or not. If they are, what they're doing is subject to trade commission scrutiny.

    Many high-profile apps can't really be defined as "Android Apps" if they won't run on "stock" Android: if they require GMS, they're "Google Apps" not "Android Apps". The fact that the Google Play Store itself has been "architected" to rely on GMS is itself an example of monopolistic behaviour in the same way that Microsoft CLAIMED (it wasn't actually true at the time) that the HTML rendering engine in Windows XP was "tied to the OS", when it was proven that it actually wasn't, then... but in the end it doesn't matter much what I think: it matters what the FTC and their analogues around the world think.

    It's very conceivable that Google could be forced to make Play Services available to companies outside the OHA, or that the OHA could be forced to accept changes if it's found to inhibit free and open competition.
    I think that would be going too far, technically "overreaching" like the judge who ordered Microsoft to be split into two companies, but on appeal that was adjusted to be "level the playing field in your Operating System products". What I think would be a 'fair' solution would be to decouple the Google Play store from Google Mobile Services (so any Android device would have access to the "monopoly" app store on Android) which of course would require a "google account" and google would make their revenue from the sales of paid apps etc.... the more thorny issue is apps that require the presence of Google Mobile Services to run. Perhaps Google would have do what Microsoft had to do: for every aspect of GMS, make it possible for users to choose, say, "Bing" for search, and Facebook for "advertising services" etc. I'm not going to solve the "problem" here, but it is a problem that I think needs solving.
    Last edited by RyanGermann; 10-07-15 at 12:07 PM.
    10-07-15 11:57 AM
  11. Skidoo583's Avatar
    Google's Play Store and Google Services were never part of AOSP, and AOSP were never promised access to them. You act as if everyone is somehow "owed" access to the store and services that Google has spent billions to develop. That's BS! Google doesn't owe anyone access to the Play Store or Google Services on their devices. If you believe they do, how do you justify this belief? And why can Apple keep others out of its own store? How can Microsoft?
    The only thing I can say because I'm not fully educated on how android and Google play services work. But android is supposed to be open source
    And apple never was open source

    Posted via CB10
    10-07-15 11:57 AM
  12. RyanGermann's Avatar
    The only thing I can say because I'm not fully educated on how android and Google play services work. But android is supposed to be open source
    And apple never was open source
    That's the part that bothers me... the great "bait and switch" that was perpetrated by offering something for free to smartphone vendors to build market share (and let's face it, those early years of Android were VERY ROUGH. Early adoptors paid for it.) until it reaches it's current position of what is rumoured to be 83% market share... but over time, bit by bit, app vendors increase their reliance on GMS until SURPRISE, lots of apps aren't compatible with "open source" Android, or other Android-based platforms, not because those other Android devices or platforms have made huge branching changes to Android code, but just because Google's proprietary "services" aren't available.

    Google is being very careful here... what they're doing may be perfectly legal from the FTC perspective: they're not going about it like Microsoft did, they may in fact be artful in how they're going to twist "Android" to be "Google"... what I also find disturbing is that one of the wealthiest companies on the planet is benefiting from the unpaid work of "open source" developers. It's just... slimy up and down. Yes, I use Google services, but ugh, I'm not a fan of Google Inc.

    ...but this has gone way off the original topic of what BlackBerry is doing to BB10: I've always said that there is a market for BB10 even without the Android Runtime... a small market, a possibly too-small market, but I don't think BlackBerry did much 'outside the box' thinking to try to keep BB10 going, they just kept trying the same wrong ideas over and over and to hardly anyone's surprise, it didn't work.



    BlackBerry brought BB10 to where it is today because they just kept metaphorically grabbing their crotch, harder, and more often.

    I hope the Slider running Android does well and that BlackBerry will see positive gains in share price and revenues. But those gains don't mean they "have" to ditch BB10, it just means they have to seek out BB10 users where they are, not continue to try to make BB10 over to be Android or iOS.
    Last edited by RyanGermann; 10-07-15 at 09:16 PM.
    10-07-15 12:21 PM
  13. TGR1's Avatar
    That's the part that bothers me... the grate "bait and switch" that was perpetrated by offering something for free to smartphone vendors to build market share (and let's face it, those early years of Android were VERY ROUGH. Early adoptors paid for it.) until it reaches it's current position of what is rumoured to be 83% market share... but over time, bit by bit, app vendors increase their reliance on GMS until SURPRISE, lots of apps aren't compatible with "open source" Android, or other Android-based platforms, not because those other Android devices or platforms have made huge branching changes to Android code, but just because Google's proprietary "services" aren't available.

    Google is being very careful here... what they're doing may be perfectly legal from the FTC perspective: they're not going about it like Microsoft did, they may in fact be artful in how they're going to twist "Android" to be "Google"... what I also find disturbing is that one of the wealthiest companies on the planet is benefiting from the unpaid work of "open source" developers. It's just... slimy up and down. Yes, I use Google services, but ugh, I'm not a fan of Google Inc.
    "Android" has always been Google's (well, since they bought it). They developed it, own it and can do what they want with it. Google Play Services, the same. That they chose to open source the operating system for others to monkey with doesn't affect that the original source is still theirs as are the services. And the services sure aren't open source.
    10-07-15 12:32 PM
  14. hasa77's Avatar
    I didn't read the whole post, just the four points, I didn't read the replies either but your just one person, my needs differ from yours. It is to be expected that mobile fans want different things. For point 1, I'm young in your eyes I believe, nearly 20 yet I own a passport and I love the keyboard. Would I move to a keyboardless phone? Yes if it was implemented better.
    point two, although I think the keyboard market is niche, the priv, i.e. android with physical keyboard will generate more sales then bb10 with a keyboard in my eyes.
    Point three, apps, Blackberry tried to get app developers to make apps but they weren't interested since the user base isn't big enough for them to think it's worthwhile. Keeping bb10 while trying to get more apps to the platform seems like an un achievable goal these days.
    Point four, again, I don't believe bb10 with a keyboard is a big market, android with a keyboard is a bigger market in my eyes but I'm not convinced the user base will be big enough to save blackberry.
    When they introduce the new device after the priv that features android with a full touchscreen, I may upgrade depending on how well the priv does and works, etc, assuming they kill bb10 or bb10 doesn't gain apps

    Posted via CB10
    10-07-15 12:33 PM
  15. snowunder2feet's Avatar
    I'll toss in my 2 cents:
    I have used all types of phones over the years going right back to the Motorola brick. I've used all the os' out there to.
    And one thing that has been constant is my affection for BlackBerry and the physical keyboard. It's simply faster for me than any touchscreen including tablets.
    So the new Priv. I'd love one but I'm leary of the Android side of things as I find the Lolipop os to be flakey.
    Will this save BlackBerry? Sadly not as the path they're on is lacking to foresight and money.
    I'll always be BlackBerry user right till the end as bb10 and the quality of the hardware can't be beat........yet. Jmo

    Posted via CB10
    10-07-15 01:03 PM
  16. RyanGermann's Avatar
    I didn't read the whole post, just the four points, I didn't read the replies either but your just one person, my needs differ from yours. It is to be expected that mobile fans want different things. For point 1, I'm young in your eyes I believe, nearly 20 yet I own a passport and I love the keyboard. Would I move to a keyboardless phone? Yes if it was implemented better.
    Well, you kind of prove the point: the notion that "young people want full touch" yet you have a Passport. I bet it was hard work for you to get one, compared to other devices, yet here you are. Do you think you're so unique, or is it just a matter of like we hear all over the CrackBerry forums "When I show people my Passport / Classic / Whatever, people say 'BlackBerry are still around?'". If BlackBerry tried harder to find and speak to people like you there might be a lot more BB10 users AND they wouldn't be killing it with prejudice.

    point two, although I think the keyboard market is niche, the priv, i.e. android with physical keyboard will generate more sales then bb10 with a keyboard in my eyes.
    Yes, but do you think that making BB10 available as an after-market "OS switch" for the slider would significantly INCREASE sales of the Android-based slider, or DECREASE them. Since it's the same device, running Android, with a different OS applied after purchase, I think it could only serve to increase sales. There are BB10 users who will not be buying the slider at all, but would buy it if BB10 was available. How many? Maybe hundreds of thousands. We'll never know.

    Point three, apps, Blackberry tried to get app developers to make apps but they weren't interested since the user base isn't big enough for them to think it's worthwhile. Keeping bb10 while trying to get more apps to the platform seems like an un achievable goal these days.
    Again, you're the exception that proves the rule... "just a kid" but wants BB10 with a PKB and clearly doesn't care about apps or has another way to get your app fix (an Android tablet, an iPad, whatever) so thanks for not being "just a kid".

    Point four, again, I don't believe bb10 with a keyboard is a big market, android with a keyboard is a bigger market in my eyes but I'm not convinced the user base will be big enough to save blackberry.
    It doesn't have to save blackberry: the Android Slider will either save BlackBerry or it won't. All that making BB10 available on the Slider needs to do is break even, because that way it doesn't cost BlackBerry anything (yes, there is risk involved) but at least BlackBerry isn't being so callously dismissive of their most loyal customers. That's a good business decision. Other posts in this thread cite other examples.

    When they introduce the new device after the priv that features android with a full touchscreen, I may upgrade depending on how well the priv does and works, etc, assuming they kill bb10 or bb10 doesn't gain apps.
    This is a bit confusing to me: you ARE a BB10 user: are you happy with BB10? Are you pining for a full touchscreen device OR the slider that has a full large touchscreen and a keyboard or are you fine with your Passport but just wish it had more apps? I'm kind of confused, but the point of making BB10 available on the slider IN ADDITION to Android, NOT as a separate device but being possible to install OVERTOP of Android to REPLACE Android, that's the approach I think is feasible, based on many BB10 fans loyalty to the BB10 platform, which is often tied to dislike of Android (for many reasons, again, articulated in previous posts in this thread.)
    10-07-15 01:41 PM
  17. DrBoomBotz's Avatar
    Who says bb10 is dead????

    Posted via CB10
    Did you not notice the smell?
    Bbnivende likes this.
    10-07-15 01:46 PM
  18. Emaderton3's Avatar
    Different OS is not interchangeable due to the driver issues with the chips.

    Posted via CB10
    10-07-15 02:27 PM
  19. Jakob Greve's Avatar
    It looks fine to me - just got my ATP/WTA live 10 update this morning 1.0.29.1
    10-07-15 02:39 PM
  20. Bluenoser63's Avatar
    Ummm.... no they don't. But nice try.

    Posted via CB10
    OK. Where is the proof of new features or phone? BlackBerry has told BB10 developers to target other platforms. BlackBerry stopped moving forward on developing BB10/Cascades/Qt. Our BlackBerry sales rep said that they are only going to have Android phones moving forward. How much more proof do you need?
    10-07-15 02:54 PM
  21. z10Jobe's Avatar
    OK. Where is the proof of new features or phone? BlackBerry has told BB10 developers to target other platforms. BlackBerry stopped moving forward on developing BB10/Cascades/Qt. Our BlackBerry sales rep said that they are only going to have Android phones moving forward. How much more proof do you need?
    The proof is in this post effortlessly flicked from my BlackBerry 10 Z10. It works great. No dead operating system here.

    Should I believe what Jobs Chen said or some Unnamed sales rep.... hmmm...

    Posted via CB10
    10-07-15 03:48 PM
  22. elhot69's Avatar
    The companies have to take decisions to survive, fast and in the right moment, and this is what blackberry doing, Look Nokia, Palm, Great in the Past, now dont exist as Device vendor.

    BlackBerry boarded the training of touch devices too late and is paying that.


    Posted via CB10
    10-07-15 03:48 PM
  23. MrPizza's Avatar
    Agreed. BB 10 is a mature OS that does what it needs to do rather well. Yes some apps are not available, but I would never go back to Android with all its immature problems. If you compare how long Android has been around vs how long BB10 has been around: BB10 is so much more mature and reliable !

    It is just BB is not listening to its customer base: e.g. hardware with removable large batteries and larger screens, not exactly something out of the ordinary is not available ! If you look at eg ELEPHONE P7000: very large removable battery, very large screen, excellent camera specs, dual sim, memory card slot etc etc, just the OS is Android, which is a no-go professionaly IMHO. The same phone, build by BB would be a huge success in my mind (and that of many others). BB does not need to imitate the iPhone, but it does need to take better care of its customers and listen and understand their needs: when I eg state removable battery is a requirement, this is a professional need: I pop a fresh battery in in the morning, and one when I leave the office (no, no time to charge and even if there might be time, this cannot be counted on), then a fresh battery at home and 2 spares at all times, so how can I possibly work with a build in battery ??? Anyone ??? As a result of this I am stuck with a Z10 as no higher spec is available (or I need to start swapping sim cards, not something I am a big fan of). So how about it BB ?
    With me are many other managers and professionals that work for or in large companies: we need to be available 24/365, no exceptions. And conversations may last a few hours, with intermittent emails expecting follow ups and replies when not in the office, so again, charging is not a given and can simply not be counted on.

    I love BB because of the reliability of the OS and the hub which simplifies life. BB 10 is great of email and phone calls, it is a pure business product. Yes it does not have eg citymapper (which would be handy but is build on google play - puke puke) and the camera could be 10x better, but it does the basic stuff extremely well and it is re-li-a-ble, and that is a must !

    No please go off and make me a Z40 with a removable battery and BB10 - I'll take two (black, white, red and maybe add another color).
    Thanks
    Skidoo583 likes this.
    10-07-15 03:51 PM
  24. luisoman2000's Avatar
    The proof is in this post effortlessly flicked from my BlackBerry 10 Z10. It works great. No dead operating system here.

    Should I believe what Jobs Chen said or some Unnamed sales rep.... hmmm...

    Posted via CB10
    I guess a better way to say it is that development is dead. sure, my Symbian n8 is still alive and kicking, but development stopped a long time ago. same with your device, the phone will still be alive but there will probably be no more development for it. it's all speculation though, until blackberry makes an official statement, so there might be a possibility that they continue with os10

    Sent from my ASUS_Z008D using Tapatalk
    10-07-15 03:54 PM
  25. TgeekB's Avatar
    The proof is in this post effortlessly flicked from my BlackBerry 10 Z10. It works great. No dead operating system here.

    Should I believe what Jobs Chen said or some Unnamed sales rep.... hmmm...

    Posted via CB10
    So you have a 2 year old phone using an OS that is currently on hold. If that works for you, fine, but it sure doesn't look like anything is changing soon except that Blackberry is attempting to go Android.
    JeepBB likes this.
    10-07-15 04:51 PM
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