[Wiki Cydia]

You can't look at it like that. Retail employees are also service employees that manage and repair iPhone's or more likely replace them. Customer service is an essential job for any company. Without it Apple would not be where it is today.

Posted via CB10

I could just as easily say you can't compare companies with branded retail employees (Microsoft, Apple) to companies without (BlackBerry, Google). Whose right? Maybe both of us, maybe neither.

If you remove retail employees from Apple, you need to remove them from the other companies also.

Posted via CB10

The retail employees of the other companies aren't significant in terms of the overall number, certainly not 58% of their employees. In reality, Apple is really a mid-size company with a large retail operation. As for the others, I doubt MS has more than 3000 retail employees, and BlackBerry has few if any. I don't believe Google has any at all.

[B4509]

Well of course they contribute. . . but "who contributes?" wasn't the question. I mean, the actual hardware manufacturers (i.e. Foxconn, etc) "contirbute" as well, but they aren't included in the numbers.

I don't think you understand what he was saying. But if you will exclude the retail employees then you must exclude the money that the stores generated

Adding to that you have to remove money brought in by computers and ipods etc. , as well as the employees that work on them

Likewise for Google ad service revenue (someone else mentioned), chrome division, their employees etc. And for Microsoft pretty much everything apart from Windows phone revenue and employees as well as RT tablets - they are diversifying like mad to try and get more money (which is fair enough)

Even then it isn't as simple as that because employees work on more than one thing. As someone else mentioned, people in retail stores repair devices or are software specialists and as seen with ios 7 where os x developers were brought over, many departments overlap or help with certain things.

Basically, it's too complex to draw a convincing comparison on the successes of each company in proportion to each other, but it does show that every one of these companies has been successful in their own way. To call BlackBerry dead or useless is fast becoming a cliche and really is naive, in the same way describing Apple and Microsoft as overgrown and stalling is wrong

Posted via CB10

[MasterOfBinary]

Basically, it's too complex to draw a convincing comparison on the successes of each company in proportion to each other, but it does show that every one of these companies has been successful in their own way. To call BlackBerry dead or useless is fast becoming a cliche and really is naive, in the same way describing Apple and Microsoft as overgrown and stalling is wrong

Posted via CB10

This.

There are so many variables that you can't really do a one-to-one comparison. But I really think BB did a great job in just two years - with all the changes and acquisitions and a brand new OS, and still being around after years of people pronouncing their death.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

This.

There are so many variables that you can't really do a one-to-one comparison. But I really think BB did a great job in just two years - with all the changes and acquisitions and a brand new OS, and still being around after years of people pronouncing their death.

Think they've been working on it much longer than 2 years, there was talk of a new OS even before QNX was purchased three years ago. And this isn't really a brand new OS from scratch - a little QNX and a little BBOS went into BB10. It is a powerful new OS, but it is also a resource and battery hog.

Most of the death pronouncements were more foretelling of what would happen if BlackBerry didn't make changes... at this point we are a lot closer to the finial death of BB than we are to life.

But I agree that comparison to other company is fruitless at this point. The only thing that matters is getting today's consumers and business to buy devices!

[Thunderbuck]

They need to pour it into a product that can be marketed.

The biggest weakness isn't product, at least not in terms of hardware. The Z10 and Q10 are decent devices with a promising UI.

The big push needs to be in bringing the OS up to par (and they look to be making great strides in the notification area just for starters).

People seem to expect BB to be instantly competitive with a greenfield platform. They've got a good year to get this right.

From the awesome virtual keyboard of my Z10

[Jerry A]

The biggest weakness isn't product, at least not in terms of hardware. The Z10 and Q10 are decent devices with a promising UI.

The big push needs to be in bringing the OS up to par (and they look to be making great strides in the notification area just for starters).

People seem to expect BB to be instantly competitive with a greenfield platform. They've got a good year to get this right.

From the awesome virtual keyboard of my Z10

The platform/ecosystem/experience is the product in this brave new world.

BlackBerry needs BlackBerry to be competitive now, not a year from now. Otherwise they risk losing more market relevance and customers.

[monil11]

If you remove retail employees from Apple, you need to remove them from the other companies also.

Posted via CB10

I dont think that would make it a fair comparison. As the company (Apple) bring a lot of income through these retail stores. Then we would have the problem of proportionately deducting from their income that is generated with the help of these employees. Also it is a strategic choice the company has made. Blackberry on the other hand according to what TH mentioned today in the annual meeting 'outsources' services such as care and repair. Which means there after sales service wont be as great as Apples but again that is a strategic decision. I'am sure BB pays a good amount to these outsourced after sales service companies. Its best to take those employee and revenue numbers as they are. (unless they are inaccurate to begin with of course.)

[monil11]

There have been a lot of comparisons between BlackBerry and their competitors, but consider this:

Apple: $156.5 billion income, 80,000 employees
Google: $50.1 billion income, 54,000 employees
Microsoft: $73.7 billion income, 93,000 employees
BlackBerry: $11 billion income, 12,700 employees.

When you take into consideration BlackBerry has built and released a brand new operating system from scratch with the resources they have compared to the others, they have done something truly remarkable. BlackBerry 10 is in many ways as good as its competitors.

I understand the point that you are trying to make that Blackberry has done a great job with the limited resources they have but I dont think the numbers you are using are adding to that argument at all for a couple of reasons.

1. Portfolio : BB deals with Mobile devices, Device management, Servers and car infotainment backend and software systems. That is not nearly as close to what those other companies are doing. Those companies have at least 10 more products each (humble estimate at best) that they allocate resources to.

2. So you are comparing revenue proportionate to the number of employees. Here is how it would stand then.

Apple : $1.95 Million revenue per employee
Google : $0.92 Million revenue per employee
Microsoft : $0.79 Million Revenue per employee
Blackberry : $0.86 Million Revenue per employee

So yea Blackberry fairs as the 3rd best in that list followed by Microsoft. It is not a 'great' feat if you are comparing them to these other tech giants.

I' am not saying that Blackberry hasn't done well with what they have but just that these number you present aren't the best support for that argument.

[birdman_38]

The only valid observation I would make from this is that Blackberry did well for a smaller company.

My point exactly. Also that they accomplished it in the face of adversity.

[Bla1ze]

You do realize that they've had massive layoffs over the past several years. Its not like they are working out of a garage. They have less workforce because they've needed less because of the massive slide in market share. If they ever get it built back up they will have more employees.

They were also bloated with too many people that brought nothing to the organization other than a name.

[donnation]

They were also bloated with too many people that brought nothing to the organization other than a name.

Very true.

[Thunderbuck]

The platform/ecosystem/experience is the product in this brave new world.

BlackBerry needs BlackBerry to be competitive now, not a year from now. Otherwise they risk losing more market relevance and customers.

I agree that the platform is the product. I believe that BB has a promising, but green, platform that will benefit from a filled-out app catalog and with key feature implementations in the OS.

Guess what? They have no debt, billions (with a 'b') in cash in the bank, and patient (for now) investors.

They've already come a long way. Many critics didn't expect them to survive 2012, so being here, with three handsets on a promising new platform, AND more money and a slimmer loss than the year previous is rather promising, no?

From the awesome virtual keyboard of my Z10

[brucep1]

They were also bloated with too many people that brought nothing to the organization other than a name.

Alicia Keys comes to mind

[donnation]

They were also bloated with too many people that brought nothing to the organization other than a name.

You could say the same thing about the other companies that are listed here too. If they got hit with hard times they would start axing people as well. If BB didn't hit such hard times those people would most likely still be there.

[richardat]

From Apple's most recent 10-K:

Employees
As of September 29, 2012, the Company had approximately 72,800 full-time equivalent employees and an additional 3,300 full-time equivalent temporary employees and contractors. Approximately 42,400 of the total full-time equivalent employees worked in the Company’s Retail segment.

So, if you remove the retail employees in order to improve the comparison (assuming roughly 58% of Apple employees are retail, based on the above), you get numbers that look like this:

Google: $50.1 billion income, 54,000 employees
Microsoft: $73.7 billion income, 93,000 employees
Apple: $156.5 billion income, 33,600 non-retail employees (estimated)
BlackBerry: $11 billion income, 12,700 employees.

Yes, and to make a comparison about the phone OS, you'd also have to eliminate all the employees who focus primarily on the other products, which undoubtedly is a considerable number.

[jkpritchard]

If I remember correctly, Apple was nearly bankrupt when they released the first iPhone.
Posted via CB10

Ha. You do NOT remember correctly. Not even close. Remember that thing Apple invented called the iPod? Yeah, they sold about 350 million of those.

Posted via CB10

[sinsin07]

...snip...If I remember correctly, Apple was nearly bankrupt when they released the first iPhone. ...

No, you don't remember correctly
Why rely on memory when there's Google?
2007 Apple profits surge 67%, shares soar

This is how FUD spreads. Help stop FUD. Use Google.

[jegs2]

Yep, the iPod pulled Apple's bacon out of the fire.

[sinsin07]

Yep, the iPod pulled Apple's bacon out of the fire.

Fourth Quarter, October 2000 Apple Reports Fourth Quarter Profit of $170 Million
iPod released January 2001.

More FUD

And they say: "Get Things Done"

[jegs2]

From your quoted article:

Apple shipped 1,122,000 units during the quarter including over 570,000 iMac™ systems.

“We have identified several factors which we believe contributed to our sales shortfall last quarter, and we are taking strong steps to remedy them going forward,” said Steve Jobs, Apple’s CEO. “Our sell-through for September was way below plan, leaving us with an overhang of channel inventory. Rather than reducing it gradually over the next several quarters, we have decided to reduce it to a normal level by the end of this quarter. This will result in a second disappointing financial quarter, even though our sell-through sales should be moderately strong. Our plan is to be back on track for the January quarter, and we remain very excited about our products and programs for 2001.”

Looks like iMac sales helped set the conditions for Apple's iPod launch.