Explanation: BB's Implementation of Time Zones

[JeffH]

Yes, I travel frequently. In fact, I work in a different time zone from my permanent address, so I have first hand experience with the confusion. I've even put appointments on my calendar in the wrong time zone and confused myself. So I completely understand your frustration.

That said, if you or I or anybody simply pays attention to the correct time zone when entering an appointment, it will always be right. Rim's system works.

Are there equally good alternatives? Maybe. You could disconnect the calendar from the clock, so that all appointments were in "local time," whereever you are. Better would be to fix Outlook so that you could enter the time zone of a meeting explicitly, not get the default. I'm told that Outlook 2007 allows that, but we haven't upgraded.

As to your Outlook rant, count me a supporter. I'm spending the next 30 days in Central Time. All my all-day appointments are entered in Eastern Time. So when I change Outlook's time, yep, all my all-days start at 11:00 pm the day before.

Finally, not everyone has taken the hit yet. There are quite a few of you time zone rebels...

Welcome to the Forums! For more exciting but probably less controversial notes, be sure to check out the Getting Started Guide and the BlackBerry 101 Lecture Series under the BlackBerry Help tab at the top of the page.

[BG123]

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I do appreciate your insight even though I don't agree. I'm fearful that this issue will drive me back to the Palm that I'm desperately trying to leave. I'm glad to hear that there are others who remain frustrated as RIM might provide us a better solution.

As for your proposed solution, I don't want to "pay attention" to time zone because RIM nor MS has made it convenient to pay attention. They don't list TZ next to the time. That's like not listing currency code next to an amount field in a financial transaction system. After I get off that plane and switch my system to my new time zone, every appointment in my calendar (non Full Day Events) changes by one hour (assuming one time zone). My first issue that you haven't addressed is that I will see the change to appointments that are in my original time zone. This is wrong and it's ~90% of my appointments. I'll need to be constantly "paying attention" and RIM isn't putting accurate or complete information (missing TZ) in my hands. It gets all the more complex for those who travel among more than two time zones. My second issue/question is how well your approach works. You haven't provided much insight as to how this would really work with viewing past and future appointments in TZ1 or TZ3, road synchs, etc. In your approach, do I need to change my laptop time zone? Is it 100% accurate when regularly swapping between multiple time zones. I know something about software testing and bet they shortcut this one. MS is terrible at this same issue. Also, what happens if you perform a synch while in that other time zone? There are simply too many variables and moving parts for them to get this complicated approach right.

When you write "you could disconnect the calendar from the clock", is that functionality supported in current version of RIM or a possible proposed solution for future?

I plan to run out and buy Outlook 2007 and will let you know how that proposed solution works.

My last request for today--I'm also having tremendous difficulty syncing my Outlook Calendar with my handheld. It works for two or three synchs and then suddenly recognizes massive amounts of differences where I've made no edits to either handheld or Outlook. I realize this is off topic so can you point me to forum topic to help me with that issue? It would be much appreciated.

Has anyone made the jump easily from Palm to RIM without starting with a fresh calendar? Thanks!

[JeffH]

Before you give up on the BlackBerry, there is one other possible source of help that may be on the way. Pocket Informant, which was my favorite Windows Mobile app, is in beta testing for the BlackBerry. WebIS used to have a Time Zone Manager program for Windows Mobile. Back then I didn't travel so much, so I never checked it out. If they port that program to the BlackBerry, it might be a good solution.

One of the independent developers that frequents the forum saw this thread and decided to create a time zone manager program as well. The last time I talked to him, he'd moved the project to a lower priority after discovering Rim didn't expose the necessary code hooks he needed to make it work. That could stop WebIS as well.

Now, to address as many of your points as I can...

As for your proposed solution, I don't want to "pay attention" to time zone because RIM nor MS has made it convenient to pay attention. They don't list TZ next to the time. That's like not listing currency code next to an amount field in a financial transaction system.

I absolutely agree that both RIM and MS ought to show the time zone everywhere time is used. I come from an engineering background. Showing a time without the timezone is like showing a speed without units. Miles per hour, furlongs per fortnight, who knows? So is saying "I have a meeting at 2:00" in a world-wide venue. At least RIM does give you a timezone selector in the appointment editor. Outlook 2003 doesn't do that.

After I get off that plane and switch my system to my new time zone, every appointment in my calendar (non Full Day Events) changes by one hour (assuming one time zone). My first issue that you haven't addressed is that I will see the change to appointments that are in my original time zone. This is wrong and it's ~90% of my appointments. I'll need to be constantly "paying attention" and RIM isn't putting accurate or complete information (missing TZ) in my hands. It gets all the more complex for those who travel among more than two time zones.

Yes, you do see the change to appointments that are in your original time zone. Whether that's wrong depends on your point of view. Say you had an appointment yesterday at 2:00 pm ET. Today you're in Central Time. When you change your device time zone from ET to CT, yesterday's appointment time will change from 2:00 pm ET to 1:00 CT. That's not wrong, but I agree it's confusing if you just glance at your calendar and see that the appointment that you know happened at 2:00 now shows as 1:00. Again, if the TZ initials were alongside it, it would be much clearer. But the time is correct. Yesterday's meeting was at 1:00 CT, and since you've now put the device in CT, it's going to show you all meetings in that TZ, past, present, and future, until you change it to another TZ.

My second issue/question is how well your approach works. You haven't provided much insight as to how this would really work with viewing past and future appointments in TZ1 or TZ3, road synchs, etc. In your approach, do I need to change my laptop time zone? Is it 100% accurate when regularly swapping between multiple time zones. I know something about software testing and bet they shortcut this one. MS is terrible at this same issue.

When I'm traveling, I don't change my laptop time zone, simply because Outlook then screws up my all-day appointments, as you've previously noted. As far as swapping between multiple time zones, I have not found any errors, but I tend to travel to just one other TZ, usually back and forth between CT and ET, with occasional trips from ET to PT. With a more complicated itinerary, especially one that included stops in areas that are exceptions to the normal DST rules, maybe you could find a problem. It's hard to prove a negative; but I haven't had a problem with the BlackBerry getting confused. Sometimes I forget where I am, but that's another problem...

Also, what happens if you perform a synch while in that other time zone? There are simply too many variables and moving parts for them to get this complicated approach right.

I'm a BES user. That means I sync OTA without using my laptop. So the laptop time is irrelevant to me. If you sync using Desktop Manager, and you don't change your laptop time zone (for good reason), then you must not enable "Sync device time with computer time." If that's enabled, everytime you sync, you'll change your device time zone back to the laptop time zone. Very confusing. Fortunately, if you set your BlackBerry time source to "Network," there's no need to sync the BlackBerry time to the laptop time. So this doesn't have to be an issue for any user, BES or BIS.

When you write "you could disconnect the calendar from the clock", is that functionality supported in current version of RIM or a possible proposed solution for future?

I don't know. It would be a major change in how their clock and calendars operate, and might confuse as many as it helped. I think you are more likely to see solutions from 3rd party vendors such as WebIS, if a 3rd party solution is possible.

I plan to run out and buy Outlook 2007 and will let you know how that proposed solution works.

I look forward to hearing your results. I already use the dual time zone feature in Outlook 2003, but that's not as good as having a time zone selector.

I hope this info helps, and I hope you can find a way to stay with the BlackBerry.

[eaglesinnc]

In Outlook 2007, you can indicate the time zone when you set the appointment. But, aside from telling me what time zone the appointment is scheduled for, it doesn't really do anything different - if I change time zones, all of my appointments change to local time whether I indicate a specific zone or not. But, it does help to know that I put that in for 10:00 Eastern or Central or whichever zone so I can keep stuff straight when I travel.

[JeffH]

Thanks for that info. Does Outlook 2007 display the time zone in any of its calendar views?

[fehrnazer]

Jeff, I think RIM should pay you for your contribution to the BB community

I have a question though, I often prepare myself for the start of the week by reading my weekly schedule to have it burnt in my head, when there is an appointment in a differnet time zone it won't show the correct appointment time until I change the time zone, correct?

Ex. If I live in LA and have an appointment in NY, when I read my calendar before I travel it will show the appointment in LA time.

The same thing happens when I come back from my trip and and review my schedule for the past week.

Sorry for the confusion, but I guess my question is if there is a way for the appointment to read "the appointment time" regardless of the timezone.

Thank Jeff

[JeffH]

Originally Posted by fehrnazer

...I often prepare myself for the start of the week by reading my weekly schedule to have it burnt in my head, when there is an appointment in a differnet time zone it won't show the correct appointment time until I change the time zone, correct?

Ex. If I live in LA and have an appointment in NY, when I read my calendar before I travel it will show the appointment in LA time...

... my question is if there is a way for the appointment to read "the appointment time" regardless of the timezone.

Thank Jeff

Good question. It goes straight to the heart of the matter. If you put an appointment on the calendar using the correct time zone, it will be at the correct appointment time, regardless of the time zone you are in.

To illustrate: You live in LA, so your PC and BB are set to PT. You have an appointment in New York on Monday at 11:00 am ET. For simplicity, let's say you enter your appointment using your BlackBerry calendar input screen, not Outlook. When you enter that appointment, you enter the meeting time as 11:00 am Eastern Time, using the BlackBerry dropdown time zone selector. When you press escape and save the meeting, it will show up on your BlackBerry calendar as 8:00 am Pacific Time. That is the correct appointment time, because 11:00 am ET is 8:00 am PT, it's just not what you were expecting to see.

If you're sitting in LA on Saturday, looking at the week ahead, your calendar shows you have an appointment Monday in NY at 8:00 am PT. The problem with this, of course, is that the calendar doesn't add the PT descriptor to the time. So you look at 8:00 am on Saturday in LA, you burn in 8:00 am, not 11:00 am.

It's even more disconcerting when you're flying home to LA with a stopover in Denver and your departure time overlaps your arrival time.

If you want your calendar to be correct in every time zone, there's no way around this, simply because 11:00 am ET is 8:00 am PT. Airlines confuse the matter by showing departure and arrival times in the correct local time at each stop, which is good, but don't include the time zone on their itineraries, which is very bad. The military solves it by using GMT, which is always correct everywhere and requires no time zone adjustments, but is disconnected from the local time. "Dumb" phones solve the problem by not including a calendar, so they can simply adjust to the correct local time. Very convenient and easy without a calendar.

What I would like to see would be the ability to show the appointment in the appointment time zone, color coded in some way so you'd know the time zone was different from the device time zone. With that, your 11:00 am ET appointment could be shown on your calendar in LA at 11:00 am in the ET color. Alternatively, if you could tell the calendar "Show Monday's appointments in ET," then you could look ahead at appointments in your destination time zone, while still in your departure time zone.

Either of these two options could conceivably be implemented. I don't know that anyone is working on them. I seriously doubt RIM ever will. If a 3rd party developer did it, I think it would sell. As I've posted earlier, the folks that sell Pocket Informant used to sell a time zone program for Windows Mobile. If they port that to BlackBerry, it could help. (I keep saying that, hoping they'll read it. I have no connection to the company; I just used PI when I was on WM.)

I know this isn't the answer you were looking for, but it's all there is at the moment.

[fehrnazer]

Thank you Jeff. That was extremely helpful. I just wish RIM or a 3rd party software devloper would listen to you to improve the BB community.

Anyway, I will keep in mind the timezone issue while looking at the week ahead.

Thanks again.

[dcwberry]

[QUOTE=JeffH;427982]"Why doesn't my Blackberry update the time correctly when I travel across time zones?"

Yeah I am a newbie, and yeah I did read all of the article, yeah I get it, but its still stupid to be smarter than your smartphone!!!

So here is the solution: on the Date Time Screen in the options folder/ options page: on a new line below DATE/TIME SOURCE, ADD a new option called DATE/TIME DISPLAY!! Your choices would be Network or TZ.

The "Display" code could easily be separate from all the incestuous interworkings of the Calendar, Outlook etc.

Could this new line of code be that difficult for BB to write?
Could the Crackberry Gods suggest this to their BB corporate contacts at the next trade show??
Is there a 3rd party program that solves this?

Thanks for taking the TIME to let the new guy vent.
DCW

- "Just cause it tastes bad, and your mommy explains why it tastes bad, doesnt mean you shouldnt demand to change the recipe" -Betty "Blackberry" Crocker.... or SunTzu, maybe Plato

[JeffH]

Thank's for taking the time to read and consider the time zone issue. Your suggestion does offer a simple way of displaying the local time. As long as you don't have appointments on your calendar, everything will be fine. Coding isn't really necessary, since you can already see "Network Time" on the Date / Time screen.

However, appointment times will still be in the time zone they were originally given. There is no way to input appointments in "Local Time."

I like your quote. Just because there are good reasons why it's difficult is no reason why it should remain difficult. There are a number of Rim insiders in the forums. Everytime somebody posts to this thread, it potentially reminds them that this is an annoyance to many users. Thanks for your help in keeping the issue on their collective mind.

[ddeans]

My wife has the blackberry pearl, and I have the curve. Both of our phones are set to pull the time from the network, however both phones show a different time, by about 2 minutes. I was wondering if there was something tha I should do so that they are more accurate, or if thats just the way it works..

[JeffH]

Are you both with the same carrier? If you reboot both phones at the same time, do they show the same time at that point?

I don't know anything inherent in the two phones that would make them show different network times, other than being on different networks or possibly using different towers. I also don't know anything you can do to change it.

If you have a Verizon phone, you can try calling *22899 to refresh the PRL on both phones. I don't know if that will help the network time issue, but it's something you should do every few months at least.

It would be better to state your carrier's name rather than using an advertising slogan.

[ddeans]

We both use Verizon, and both phones are right next to each other and I did the *22899 and I took the batteries out and put them back in. Still off by 2 minutes. I will just leave it as it is, its not the end of the world. But thanks.

[Barry41561]

As per your opening point - that this comes up from new users who are 'dumbfounded' by their expensive new smartphone -- the reality is that the Treo's, running the Palm OS, do NOT have this issue. Yes, I agree that the Palm software was state-of-the-art in the year 2000, but it did permit the smartphone to update to the local TZ, without any complications.

As those of us who travel know - the BB DOES know the local time -- it simply 'refuses' to update the 'local' time to that TZ.

So -- what would be so horrible for the BB to simply update to the local time?

While I understand your point -- for those of us traveling both domestically and internationally, the current setup is unacceptable: It simply makes more work for the user (as an example - on a recent trip I traveled from NY to LA to London to Berlin to NY. The best that RIM could tell me was that I had to know each time zone I was traveling to. Sorry - but that's insane).

As a 'middle' ground -- why not give the user the option of letting the BB update to the local time? We'll figure the rest out....


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"Why doesn't my Blackberry update the time correctly when I travel across time zones?"

This question comes up once or twice a month, generally from a new user who is dumbfounded their expensive new smartphone can't do something their last three dumb phones did automatically. I'm offering this post to elaborate on the Blackberry FAQ, cited below, and to offer a real life example of how the Rim technique works. I hope it will clear up some of the confusion around this topic, and help new users get the most from their phone. Your comments are welcome. I'll be happy to correct any mistakes you find.

[nstockton]

Since this question comes up so frequently, isn't that a hint that Blackberry should make a change? I understand how it works, and hate it, and I don't think I'm alone. One of the easiest helpful changes would be to simply display 2 times on the front screen, the home time and the network time. To go a step further, every entry needs just 2 times, the home time and the local time. Does RIM have any plans at all to make any sort of change? Is there any add-on I could get to deal with this differently. Based on the way it works, I'm not going to make any manual setting changes to my blackberry when I fly to a different time zone. Sure, today's appointments might show as I want, but all my other appointments will not show properly. Having to make a manual change every time and then still have issues when looking at appointments in the calendar is not a good solution.