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  1. Banco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBThemes View Post
    yes people, a product is worth what the parts cost, and thats it. no, forget about the people paid to put it together, those who have spent alot of time designing the hardware, coding the software, all the r+d and shipping too, that stuff doesnt cost anything...........meanwhile, in the real world, it does cost to employ people!!! shocker
    Precisely. Then there's ongoing support, marketing, and above all, the point that making a profit on it is not enough, it has to be a profit that is sustainable for the next iteration.

    I can make a cake for a couple of pounds, but then there's my time, my expertise and I would have to make enough to make a living from it. Selling it for £2.50 is making a profit, but it's not a viable profit.
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  2. r0v3rT3N's Avatar
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    #52  

    Default Z10 specs, price point - Not so impressed....

    The Aristo will be good for you if you want a top of the spec device.
    Have I really been here for three years?
  3. darkehawke's Avatar
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    #53  

    Default Z10 specs, price point - Not so impressed....

    Quote Originally Posted by howarmat View Post
    i think 550 or higher is expected. they need to make money you know
    if they play the short game, they will fail.

    common sense would be to make the z10 cheap to attract as many users as possible to the new platform

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  4. thecsman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samadkins29 View Post
    Yea the PB was beating specs all over the place until it hit the real world. At which point it started getting beat. Coming from the computer tech world I can assure you specs DO matter. If I didn't buy the nexus I would not have had a phone... kinda a mute point. What I wanted from a new BB10 device, was better hardware(than whats out) w/ software optimized for the better hardware. I would gladly have paid upwards of $800. I don't expect everyone to agree with me. I respect all of your points. But when anything new is released at top dollar, it usually includes better hardware. I guess its an attitude I picked up working in the computer field.

    Oh and BTW, the galaxy nexus is LTE.
    Hey, gamer, buy the Nexus. It will make you happy.

    Some people are not meant to be BlackBerry people.
  5. jimpilot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thecsman View Post

    Some people are not meant to be BlackBerry people.
    Kind of says it all.
  6. RubberChicken76's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samadkins29 View Post
    I can see the kids have arrived. No obviously I have not. But its not hard to look at the specs and come to a rough build estimate based off price cost on similar units. But your right, you caught me, i'm sure its cost them hundreds more to make...
    How about waiting to see what's confirmed in it before making assessments about it?
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    I like how BlackBerry 10 is evolving, but when are they going to fix BlackBerry Link for Mac?

    The fact that it doesn't reliably do what it's supposed to do ... most of the time ... is utterly appalling. The only consistency is the "Music not copied to Z10 message"
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  7. Plazmic Flame's Avatar
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    #57  

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    How can you be unimpressed with rumour specs and prices??

    The way the market has been steadily moving, specs are not everything. The only one that has been pushing out top tier specs is Samsung and Android still lags on it. Specs aren't everything and prices remain to be seen.

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    What is the ultimate BlackBerry? The ultimate BlackBerry would be a device with the screen size of the Z10 along with the physical keyboard of the Q10 and the battery life of the Z30. This, would be the ultimate BlackBerry. Why they haven't built it yet remains one of the greatest mystery of BlackBerry.

  8. RubberChicken76's Avatar
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    Ahh, the legendary "specs" debate. I suppose if you have to have the latest possible high end specs, this isn't the phone for you.

    Then again, a lot of these phones seem to be upping the arms race for the sake of upping the arms race vs. a benefit to consumers.


    "Here's an 8 core, LTE, 1080p, 600 PPI, 9" screen Smartphone with 16 GB of ram. And we've got a 60 megapixel camera too!

    But the battery goes for an hour and a half and the apps will look the same as on other devices. Plus your eyes won't actually see a difference on the screen and the 60 megapixel camera will share photos to Facebook in the same quality as the 2 megapixel camera you used to have.

    In the end, it won't matter. Samsung and Apple will make money, most of the other Android phone makers will have shrinking gross margins and that will be that"

    I'm more interested in it being snappy, lasting a day and running competitive apps. If they can get that out of a dual core device, I'm fine with a dual core device.
    ------------------------------------
    I like how BlackBerry 10 is evolving, but when are they going to fix BlackBerry Link for Mac?

    The fact that it doesn't reliably do what it's supposed to do ... most of the time ... is utterly appalling. The only consistency is the "Music not copied to Z10 message"
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  9. kill_9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by howarmat View Post
    i think 550 or higher is expected. they need to make money you know
    Research In Motion needs to prove their premium-priced devices are justified. Based upon the company's performance since the BlackBerry OS 6.1 renamed BlackBerry OS 7 as trickery to pacify the user base when it was obvious BlackBerry OS 10 / BBX / QNX was not ready and would need at least 2 additional years of development, and the stumble and fumble during Heins' most recent conference call, the price on the BlackBerry L should be discounted to the point of a loss-leader. If the first BlackBerry OS 10 device out of the gate does not garner significant sales numbers, Heins' chatter about licensing the BlackBerry OS 10 platform will be the only option left. I anticipate Rogers Wireless charging CAD599.00 for the BlackBerry L off-contract and CAD299.00 on a three-year contract. Overpriced!
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  10. Easy-G's Avatar
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    I feel as though smartphone hardware specs have reached a plateau and Apple capitalized on that with the iPhone 5 - while the processor and wireless connectivity have marked improvements, they essentially made the device thinner and lighter. Their user experience remains the industry gold standard and they have every third party app that consumers care about.

    If the rumored specs deliver the experience RIM is gunning for with BB10 and they are able to get the essential apps on board, I think they can get away with a $500-$550 price point.
  11. samadkins29's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crackcookie View Post
    IF RIM sells direct....directly to who? Who would walk into a RIM store? In Detroit, we have the only RIM store in America, and I don't mean a RIM store that is part of an airport or mall, I mean the only stand alone RIM store. NOOOOO ONE goes inside of it, in fact, the news paper did an article here 6 months ago about how it needs to be closed down because everyone else goes to the mall and the Apple store is always packed, even when they don't release anything. Or the Sprint/ATT/whatever store always has customers.

    RIM isn't Google if you haven't noticed and they cannot do things that Google can do. If they could, they would have a car driving around the world mapping it out and do a lot more. No on wants RIM products to be expensive, we would love them to be cheaper but I always equate RIM to Nintendo. Nintendos competition can do things it cannot, simply because Nintendo only makes video games and consoles. The moment the DS and Wii fail to sustain the company, the company fails to exist and must start selling assets. Sony sells electronics and MS computers.

    Look at RIM, what do they sell.....phones. Apple sells music, computers, and all that jazz, MS too, Google does just about everything. These companies would be fine if their phones sold for a loss or didn't sell at all. RIM just can't do that. Do you honestly think people want to walk into a RIM store and plunk down a few hundred for a phone, when they could get a phone for less at their carriers?
    Are you kidding me.....RIM can sell direct online. Many companies have successfully done this. Its not hard. You add a checkout page. Selling direct doesnt mean you have to have store fronts. Where is ANY google store??? And where is this myth that the phone costs less on contract? Its cost you more since you will be paying a way higher rate plan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeberry View Post
    Anyone who 'just' looks at specs when buying is anything but smart. If an OS makes a device work as smoothly with 1GB RAM as with a 3GB RAM, it doesn't make sense to have 3GB. Same with CPU.
    Right... I would still rather have my current computer setup than a pent1 running micro xp. And when you go to buy your next TV, just walk into the store and pick whatever. Let me know how that works out for you......
  12. BB10Tech's Avatar
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    What Specs , when were they released by RIM , as yet to find it anywhere . Amazing the BB bashers are in full swing , the only RIM downside is the children cant separate the past with the future . RIM is no longer the same company on 2011 , not even close and the NEW CEO has kept every promise since coming on board and yet many still refer RIM to the old days . I am not sure though did Apple get the same treatment back in the 90s when they were days aways from Chapter 11
  13. pavlos46's Avatar
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    Well Google has been selling the specs card heavily the past years and well I am unimpressed.
    Sorry to say android is a lower quality OS and regardless of how much they blow up the specs its not gonna be any more than mediocre.
    Mr Jobs has proved this point again and again, remember for example even the latest and faster iphones have only 512k ram.

    If bb10 is the software its supposed to be and there are no glitses then it's gonna be Apple vs RIM vs MS.

    Pavlos
  14. Flip4Bytes's Avatar
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    Leaked picture shows that Z10 will actually have 2GB of RAM... Not just 1.. Woohoo!!!!
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  15. samadkins29's Avatar
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    Thread AuthorThread Author   #65  

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    Quote Originally Posted by BB10Tech View Post
    What Specs , when were they released by RIM , as yet to find it anywhere . Amazing the BB bashers are in full swing , the only RIM downside is the children cant separate the past with the future . RIM is no longer the same company on 2011 , not even close and the NEW CEO has kept every promise since coming on board and yet many still refer RIM to the old days . I am not sure though did Apple get the same treatment back in the 90s when they were days aways from Chapter 11
    So if I dont agree with something, im "bashing" RIM? Taking criticism is part of growing a successful company. But I guess we can all drink the kool aid and act like RIM is super successful right now and has done no wrong...
  16. pooger's Avatar
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    *****

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  17. Banco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samadkins29 View Post
    So if I dont agree with something, im "bashing" RIM? Taking criticism is part of growing a successful company. But I guess we can all drink the kool aid and act like RIM is super successful right now and has done no wrong...
    Of course it is. But it would help if the criticism was based on what they have done, not what they haven't said anything about.
  18. Hawkeberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos46 View Post
    Sorry to say android is a lower quality OS and regardless of how much they blow up the specs its not gonna be any more than mediocre.
    Pavlos
    I agree specs are a bit overrated but I won't agree about Android being mediocre. I am running JB on my Xperia S and it is fantastic and thanks to guys at XDA, it keeps getting better.
    Time you enjoy wasting, was not wasted
  19. SuperionMaximus's Avatar
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    I look at things from a marketing perspective. RIM is not a new player in the game. They have been around for years and as a result have earned a brand reputation that they are trying to over come. I'd say it's safe to say that most of us who read the CrackBerry forums are in North America. Lets look at this debate from a brand perception in the North American Market perspective.

    RIM has pretty much lost all credibility in North America due to some blunders of the last 3 years or so. If you've ever taken marketing, there is a general rule that it costs 5 time more to win a customer back that has left your then to gain a new one. So in North America, RIM has an up hill battle.

    What are some of the perceptions that are in the heads of former RIM customers about BlackBerry phones?

    OS looks like crap. That is already an out of date perception, but these people left around OS 5 so they have a point.

    Hardware sucks. RIM has an image of being WAY behind the curve on hardware. People use the word "old" to describe BlackBerry allot.

    No apps. We know RIM will address this problem wiht BB 10.

    RIM needs every advantage it can give it's self out of the gate with BB 10. Hardware is the one area I have no faith at all in Thorsten. He was the hardware guy at RIM that led the downhill side after the Bold 9000. He is not forward thinking on hardware at all.

    People who have left RIM are going to notice BB 10. They are going to hear what the reviewers say about it. The experience might be great but if the hardware is "last year" they will write it off and assume that it's the same old RIM that never learns. It really is much harder to win back a customer that has left then it is to get a new one. Customers who left will shy away at the slightest hint that the company is the same as they remember.

    The Java OS compounded people's perception of lack luster hardware because of the memory leaks and battery pulls requirement. We know BB 10 is a different animal entirely and does not require top end hardware, but the people who left BlackBerry don't. They will hear the hardware is so last year in a review and assume that the new OS will freeze up and require a battery pull every day.

    So from a marketing perspective, it's not about what the OS needs to run smooth, it's the fact that RIM needs to overcome potential win back customers perceptions about BlackBerry and if they came out of the gate with 2013 specs then it would be one less hurdle for them to over come. We don't even know if the Aristo is ever going to come to market. But we do know that the Z10 and X10 will. These phones will make the first impression for BB 10 and they need to get them right because the impression of BlackBerry right now is not good in many developed markets.

    There are going to be amazing next generation phones announced before BlackBerry 10 at CES and just a few days after BlackBerry 10 at MWC in Feb. So RIM may think that there is no noise in Q1 but there are major industry events where companies like HTC, Sony, Samsung, Motorola etc announce some impressive new gear.

    RIM can't survive if it only sells phones to us BlackBerry loyalists. The reason I wish the specs were better is simply because I want RIM to have every possible advantage in gaining back former customers in developed markets who won't look twice at BB 10 if they hear that RIM still hasn't learned to be an innovator in hardware. If they think RIM is still behind and playing catch up they won't come back. Especially with all the delays, RIM should have come out of the gate swinging with hardware that will set the bar for everyone else in 2013.
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  20. samadkins29's Avatar
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    Very well put Maximus. You put in words whats been in the back of mind since the start of this thread.
  21. Banco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperionMaximus View Post
    Snip.
    Good post, though the one thing I would say is that the vast majority of people are pretty much uninterested in the phone that they have, and the history of the company behind it. They just want it to work and do X, Y and Z. That cuts both ways of course, because those that have "Blackberry is crap" at the back of their minds will never get one, no matter how good it is. In a few years maybe. On the other hand, I suspect a fair old chunk of the market will be open to anything which is deemed to be good or (yuck) "cool". And they don't have to get everyone of course.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrackedBarry View Post
    Yes, it's up to the specs of phones that are out NOW. But the L series won't be out and in consumers hands till February/March at the earliest, and by that time it'll be up against quad core phones with 2gb RAM and 1080p screens. That's the problem...
    Feb/march is only 2/3 months away, not much will change as far as spec for consumer available phones. While yes at CES there will probably be higher speced phones announced, they also won't be released for a couple months, and it won't be until the end of the year when cortex a15 chips are released that something will flatly beat out the l-series phones spec wise.

    Also, quad-core does not mean its better than dual core. You have to look at the quality of the chip used. The new HTC X+ is using a Tegra quad-core processor, and according to most reviews any performance boost is hardly noticeable, but battery life is signifantly worse. Also the iPhone 5 with its dual-core a6 chip gets higher geek bench scores than the quad core exinos in the GS3, while also getting better life with a smaller phone. A lot goes into what makes a good processor, you can't just look at cores as much as you can't look at ghz. You have to look at the whole package and have software that can fully utilize it, and believe RIM will do that.
    all smartphones are tools.
    android = 48pc tool set (you"ll eventually find the tool you need, but some assembly required)
    iphone = swiss army knife (most of the tools you need in a small, simple to use package)
    blackberry = adjustable wrench (sometimes all you need is a wrench)
    windows phone = bionic wrench (its different....but it works)
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  23. crackcookie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thecsman View Post
    Hey, gamer, buy the Nexus. It will make you happy.

    Some people are not meant to be BlackBerry people.
    Let's not say things like this, as in, either you're with us or against us, that is what makes forums lame. When people stop TALKING and start fighting, go to the squared circle for that.
    Quote Originally Posted by RubberChicken76 View Post
    Ahh, the legendary "specs" debate. I suppose if you have to have the latest possible high end specs, this isn't the phone for you.

    Then again, a lot of these phones seem to be upping the arms race for the sake of upping the arms race vs. a benefit to consumers.


    "Here's an 8 core, LTE, 1080p, 600 PPI, 9" screen Smartphone with 16 GB of ram. And we've got a 60 megapixel camera too!

    But the battery goes for an hour and a half and the apps will look the same as on other devices. Plus your eyes won't actually see a difference on the screen and the 60 megapixel camera will share photos to Facebook in the same quality as the 2 megapixel camera you used to have.

    In the end, it won't matter. Samsung and Apple will make money, most of the other Android phone makers will have shrinking gross margins and that will be that"

    I'm more interested in it being snappy, lasting a day and running competitive apps. If they can get that out of a dual core device, I'm fine with a dual core device.
    He is right, RIM cannot win the specs battle, they just can't. Android can easily crank out phones at a loss if they have to. The Kindle was sold at a loss I believe, just to get you to buy their stuff and see their ads....RIM can't do that, so their specs must be profitable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy-G View Post
    I feel as though smartphone hardware specs have reached a plateau and Apple capitalized on that with the iPhone 5 - while the processor and wireless connectivity have marked improvements, they essentially made the device thinner and lighter. Their user experience remains the industry gold standard and they have every third party app that consumers care about.

    If the rumored specs deliver the experience RIM is gunning for with BB10 and they are able to get the essential apps on board, I think they can get away with a $500-$550 price point.
    This will never be true. There is always room to grow and RIM learned that very well in the Storm era. Everytime they released a phone, it was always newer but underpowered to run almost anything out there. I do feel that iphone experience won't get any better, because it is limited by its OS and its aps, but that is another story.

    Quote Originally Posted by samadkins29 View Post
    Are you kidding me.....RIM can sell direct online. Many companies have successfully done this. Its not hard. You add a checkout page. Selling direct doesnt mean you have to have store fronts. Where is ANY google store??? And where is this myth that the phone costs less on contract? Its cost you more since you will be paying a way higher rate plan.


    Right... I would still rather have my current computer setup than a pent1 running micro xp. And when you go to buy your next TV, just walk into the store and pick whatever. Let me know how that works out for you......
    Quote Originally Posted by SuperionMaximus View Post
    I look at things from a marketing perspective. RIM is not a new player in the game. They have been around for years and as a result have earned a brand reputation that they are trying to over come. I'd say it's safe to say that most of us who read the CrackBerry forums are in North America. Lets look at this debate from a brand perception in the North American Market perspective.

    RIM has pretty much lost all credibility in North America due to some blunders of the last 3 years or so. If you've ever taken marketing, there is a general rule that it costs 5 time more to win a customer back that has left your then to gain a new one. So in North America, RIM has an up hill battle.

    What are some of the perceptions that are in the heads of former RIM customers about BlackBerry phones?

    OS looks like crap. That is already an out of date perception, but these people left around OS 5 so they have a point.

    Hardware sucks. RIM has an image of being WAY behind the curve on hardware. People use the word "old" to describe BlackBerry allot.

    No apps. We know RIM will address this problem wiht BB 10.

    RIM needs every advantage it can give it's self out of the gate with BB 10. Hardware is the one area I have no faith at all in Thorsten. He was the hardware guy at RIM that led the downhill side after the Bold 9000. He is not forward thinking on hardware at all.

    People who have left RIM are going to notice BB 10. They are going to hear what the reviewers say about it. The experience might be great but if the hardware is "last year" they will write it off and assume that it's the same old RIM that never learns. It really is much harder to win back a customer that has left then it is to get a new one. Customers who left will shy away at the slightest hint that the company is the same as they remember.

    The Java OS compounded people's perception of lack luster hardware because of the memory leaks and battery pulls requirement. We know BB 10 is a different animal entirely and does not require top end hardware, but the people who left BlackBerry don't. They will hear the hardware is so last year in a review and assume that the new OS will freeze up and require a battery pull every day.

    So from a marketing perspective, it's not about what the OS needs to run smooth, it's the fact that RIM needs to overcome potential win back customers perceptions about BlackBerry and if they came out of the gate with 2013 specs then it would be one less hurdle for them to over come. We don't even know if the Aristo is ever going to come to market. But we do know that the Z10 and X10 will. These phones will make the first impression for BB 10 and they need to get them right because the impression of BlackBerry right now is not good in many developed markets.

    There are going to be amazing next generation phones announced before BlackBerry 10 at CES and just a few days after BlackBerry 10 at MWC in Feb. So RIM may think that there is no noise in Q1 but there are major industry events where companies like HTC, Sony, Samsung, Motorola etc announce some impressive new gear.

    RIM can't survive if it only sells phones to us BlackBerry loyalists. The reason I wish the specs were better is simply because I want RIM to have every possible advantage in gaining back former customers in developed markets who won't look twice at BB 10 if they hear that RIM still hasn't learned to be an innovator in hardware. If they think RIM is still behind and playing catch up they won't come back. Especially with all the delays, RIM should have come out of the gate swinging with hardware that will set the bar for everyone else in 2013.
    Yes and no, you are looking at it through the wrong lens. Customers do want great specs, but they don't trade in a phone everytime another core is added. They get new phones when they are NEW just to have the latest phone, but still do the same stuff on it. I remember this girl bragging about her S3 to me, I said, what do you do with it....she didn't say anything and just kept on looking at pictures of herself.

    She would do the SAME exact thing if she had a BBZ10. She doesn't love the S3 for the specs, but for the experience. Large screen, smooth UI, quality camera.....You can't really say that about any blackberry....you can say it about the Playbook, but not any BB.

    And that is what RIM needs to capture, I sent a few of my friends that video where a guy is "kidnapped" and forced to use BB10 with one hand while tied to a chair in under 30 seconds. They saw the phone, looked sleek, they noticed the UI (Notice how I don't say OS...because it isn't the OS it is the experience, is the phone clean, are transitions smooth, does it make sense, when I am stuck/frustrated, is it simple to go back or do something different) and the LARGE SCREEN (no pictures were really shown, but people equate large screens with great pics....again something the Storm didn't really have either)

    Look, electronics are a cut throat industry, let us be clear about that. RIM has caught up in the experience platform, and possibly even surpassed IOS and Samsung. IOS isn't an amazing OS, its marketed as a phone for people who are too stupid to use a phone, and it works. Now BB10 will be marketed, or should be, as the OS of the present and future. Once you use a PB/BB10...you will think to yourself....why am I using buttons on my phone to do this function? Why doesn't everything have this feature? I have a PB, and sometimes when I use my cars touchscreen, or even my torch I touch it like a PB. Because a playbook is so intuitive. The UI rocks, it has set a new precedence that others will soon have to copy, all that needs to happen now is marketing (another thing RIM doesn't do well if at all)

    Did you hear that? This OS is amazing, this phone will sell itself! They just have to release it, they got to get it online with the youtube clips and in peoples hands at stores. Do you know why RIM can't sell direct? Because no store HAS a BB. Seriously, I went to 8 different stores and asked for a 9900. None of them had one, 6 stores didn't even have BB in their kiosk. So now tell me, besides BB loyalists...who will buy a BB if they have never used one, or even seen one in a store??!??!

    RIM will be smart to distance itself from its past, the only thing they should talk about are the current BB and the PB, because honestly, they don't have many flaws. Now they have to make sure that 1. They have apps for people and 2. they don't miss another release date!!!!


    Now go forth, and send a friend or two of yours videos like this

    BlackBerry 10 Camera: A Closer Look - YouTube

    or that



    keep it short (no 14 minute lectures) and to the point, and instead of telling them, allow them to see with their own eyes.
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  24. samadkins29's Avatar
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    Thread AuthorThread Author   #74  

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    The PB is prime example of an under power unit with a nice UI. Lets not get into its sales figures.... If your still wondering why no store stocks BB, its because the current phone line up is over priced. Thats RIM's fault not the stores. RIM could make a killing selling direct online and in electronics stores if the price point is right. When you have a company that's not doing so hot right now, the point is to get your phone into as many hands as possible. Consumers want unlocked/unbranded phones. TMO is planning to drop all subsidized phone prices and plans, a move I fully back. How well do you think computers would sell is they were locked into only one internet provider. "Enjoy your new DELL/Comcast internet computer" LOL
  25. Jonesy1966's Avatar
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    #75  

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    I think some analysts have "to market" priced the Z10 at between $400-$450, the actual cost of getting a phone into someone's hands. That includes the actual coast of the unit in parts, assembly, marketing, distribution, carrier support and all other costs. Knowing the price of a bunch of parts means nothing and only tells part of the story of getting a product into the stores especially when each manufacturer's costs are different for all levels of the marketing chain.
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