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  1. Frehley's Avatar
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    Default Is the Z10 as secure as 9900 running through BIS?

    I have been trying to find a definitive answer to this.

    The non corporate 9900 ran through BIS and RIM's (now BlackBerry) NOC. And the Z10 can just runs on a "Generic LTE" plan...just like any other smart phone.

    I understand that there is no data compression with the Z10, but I don't know if the Z10 is as secure as the 9900.

    Any insight would be welcomed and appreciated.

    Thanks in advance!


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  2. SlcCorrado's Avatar
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    I guess it depends on what kind of security you are after. My guess is that over-the-air browsing will be less secure just based on the fact that you aren't using BIS. However, my understanding is that users can choose to keep BIS if they want or if carriers will allow. Hopefully someone else can chime in and clarify
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  3. goku_vegeta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlcCorrado View Post
    I guess it depends on what kind of security you are after. My guess is that over-the-air browsing will be less secure just based on the fact that you aren't using BIS. However, my understanding is that users can choose to keep BIS if they want or if carriers will allow. Hopefully someone else can chime in and clarify
    Carriers like Bell force you on a BlackBerry Plan. This can be a good or bad thing depending on your case. Having 1X RIM Provisioning (as it's written) means the phone can access RIM servers and the NOC though BIS. Now that's dandy and all, but the Z10 really doesn't need it as a generic data plan will work. However if you do happen to swap to any other BlackBerry Java OS devices from time to time, that 1X RIM Provisioning is what allows you to use BBM, Email, Facebook, Twitter, pretty much any data while out of WiFi on BlackBerry Java OS devices.

    As far as I know here in Canada, BlackBerry plans are identical for the Z10 as say a generic plan. Basically the only real difference is you'll see something that says 1X RIM Provisioning as a feature on the plan on your Z10 if you were on Bell (Although I'm assuming you, referring to the OP, are on AT&T).

    As far as BIS is concerned. You can't really "keep" it, the data compression is now gone, obviously the device will still access the NOC for things like BlackBerry Messenger and BlackBerry World. Even if you have a "BIS" plan nothing is different other than the account having RIM provisioning. I believe that BlackBerry stated somewhere (I think it was in a video, which might actually have been a CrackBerry interview/information/demo type of video) where they explained how they've made the devices more secure with more security within the OS and on the software side of things.

    Bottom line: In my opinion, the Z10 is fairly secure. Definitely more secure than other platforms out there. Is it as secure as BlackBerry Java OS devices? Debatable, BIS did offer compression and "security" although from what I understand that security was just the scrambling of messages, therefore BBM messages were not able to be decoded which prompted various nations Governments to have talks with BlackBerry about that.

    Hope that helps
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  4. RussBerry007's Avatar
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    "Shock me, make me feel better....duh dutta dut dutta....shock me....
    Guitar Players do it better!!

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  5. Frehley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goku_vegeta View Post
    Carriers like Bell force you on a BlackBerry Plan. This can be a good or bad thing depending on your case. Having 1X RIM Provisioning (as it's written) means the phone can access RIM servers and the NOC though BIS. Now that's dandy and all, but the Z10 really doesn't need it as a generic data plan will work. However if you do happen to swap to any other BlackBerry Java OS devices from time to time, that 1X RIM Provisioning is what allows you to use BBM, Email, Facebook, Twitter, pretty much any data while out of WiFi on BlackBerry Java OS devices.

    As far as I know here in Canada, BlackBerry plans are identical for the Z10 as say a generic plan. Basically the only real difference is you'll see something that says 1X RIM Provisioning as a feature on the plan on your Z10 if you were on Bell (Although I'm assuming you, referring to the OP, are on AT&T).

    As far as BIS is concerned. You can't really "keep" it, the data compression is now gone, obviously the device will still access the NOC for things like BlackBerry Messenger and BlackBerry World. Even if you have a "BIS" plan nothing is different other than the account having RIM provisioning. I believe that BlackBerry stated somewhere (I think it was in a video, which might actually have been a CrackBerry interview/information/demo type of video) where they explained how they've made the devices more secure with more security within the OS and on the software side of things.

    Bottom line: In my opinion, the Z10 is fairly secure. Definitely more secure than other platforms out there. Is it as secure as BlackBerry Java OS devices? Debatable, BIS did offer compression and "security" although from what I understand that security was just the scrambling of messages, therefore BBM messages were not able to be decoded which prompted various nations Governments to have talks with BlackBerry about that.

    Hope that helps
    Thanks goku_vegeta! I'm especially interested in the line where you state that "they have made the device more secure from the software side"

    I have been using BlackBerry's since the 7250 and have become comfortable knowing that the device was secure running through the NOC. I use my phone for EVERYTHING and I guess that I have become somewhat concerned about how secure the Z10 is.

    Thanks!

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  6. Frehley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RussBerry007 View Post
    "Shock me, make me feel better....duh dutta dut dutta....shock me....
    RussBerry, that would be...
    Duh dutta Dut dutta...emphasis on the picking pattern!

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  7. SDTRMG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goku_vegeta View Post
    Carriers like Bell force you on a BlackBerry Plan. This can be a good or bad thing depending on your case. Having 1X RIM Provisioning (as it's written) means the phone can access RIM servers and the NOC though BIS. Now that's dandy and all, but the Z10 really doesn't need it as a generic data plan will work. However if you do happen to swap to any other BlackBerry Java OS devices from time to time, that 1X RIM Provisioning is what allows you to use BBM, Email, Facebook, Twitter, pretty much any data while out of WiFi on BlackBerry Java OS devices.

    As far as I know here in Canada, BlackBerry plans are identical for the Z10 as say a generic plan. Basically the only real difference is you'll see something that says 1X RIM Provisioning as a feature on the plan on your Z10 if you were on Bell (Although I'm assuming you, referring to the OP, are on AT&T).

    As far as BIS is concerned. You can't really "keep" it, the data compression is now gone, obviously the device will still access the NOC for things like BlackBerry Messenger and BlackBerry World. Even if you have a "BIS" plan nothing is different other than the account having RIM provisioning. I believe that BlackBerry stated somewhere (I think it was in a video, which might actually have been a CrackBerry interview/information/demo type of video) where they explained how they've made the devices more secure with more security within the OS and on the software side of things.

    Bottom line: In my opinion, the Z10 is fairly secure. Definitely more secure than other platforms out there. Is it as secure as BlackBerry Java OS devices? Debatable, BIS did offer compression and "security" although from what I understand that security was just the scrambling of messages, therefore BBM messages were not able to be decoded which prompted various nations Governments to have talks with BlackBerry about that.

    Hope that helps
    You sir should writ articles your post was very informative thank you.

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  8. goku_vegeta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SDTRMG View Post
    You sir should writ articles your post was very informative thank you.

    Posted via CB10
    Actually I do Executive Editor at All Things Mobile Incorporated (quitting soon and launching my own though) I've also written pieces for Excalibur publications at York University.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frehley View Post
    Thanks goku_vegeta! I'm especially interested in the line where you state that "they have made the device more secure from the software side"

    I have been using BlackBerry's since the 7250 and have become comfortable knowing that the device was secure running through the NOC. I use my phone for EVERYTHING and I guess that I have become somewhat concerned about how secure the Z10 is.

    Thanks!

    Posted via CB10
    I will try and dig up where I found that news piece, I know it's around here somewhere!
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  9. Frehley's Avatar
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    Thanks goku_vegeta, I look forward to reading it.

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  10. akavbb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goku_vegeta View Post
    Carriers like Bell force you on a BlackBerry Plan. This can be a good or bad thing depending on your case. Having 1X RIM Provisioning (as it's written) means the phone can access RIM servers and the NOC though BIS. Now that's dandy and all, but the Z10 really doesn't need it as a generic data plan will work. However if you do happen to swap to any other BlackBerry Java OS devices from time to time, that 1X RIM Provisioning is what allows you to use BBM, Email, Facebook, Twitter, pretty much any data while out of WiFi on BlackBerry Java OS devices.

    As far as I know here in Canada, BlackBerry plans are identical for the Z10 as say a generic plan. Basically the only real difference is you'll see something that says 1X RIM Provisioning as a feature on the plan on your Z10 if you were on Bell (Although I'm assuming you, referring to the OP, are on AT&T).

    As far as BIS is concerned. You can't really "keep" it, the data compression is now gone, obviously the device will still access the NOC for things like BlackBerry Messenger and BlackBerry World. Even if you have a "BIS" plan nothing is different other than the account having RIM provisioning. I believe that BlackBerry stated somewhere (I think it was in a video, which might actually have been a CrackBerry interview/information/demo type of video) where they explained how they've made the devices more secure with more security within the OS and on the software side of things.

    Bottom line: In my opinion, the Z10 is fairly secure. Definitely more secure than other platforms out there. Is it as secure as BlackBerry Java OS devices? Debatable, BIS did offer compression and "security" although from what I understand that security was just the scrambling of messages, therefore BBM messages were not able to be decoded which prompted various nations Governments to have talks with BlackBerry about that.

    Hope that helps
    First of all thank you. In Greece BIS is more expensive than regular data plan. In order to finally decide if I will keep my BIS or not I would like to know if bis keeps the encryption even for Z10. if it does, maybe it is worth the extra money.
    in order to have some measure of the price difference: 150mb in bis cost as much as 300mb in regular data plan.
    There are 10 types of people; those who understand binary, and those who don't...
  11. goku_vegeta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by akavbb View Post
    First of all thank you. In Greece BIS is more expensive than regular data plan. In order to finally decide if I will keep my BIS or not I would like to know if bis keeps the encryption even for Z10. if it does, maybe it is worth the extra money.
    in order to have some measure of the price difference: 150mb in bis cost as much as 300mb in regular data plan.
    Using BIS on the Z10 or other BlackBerry device has no real advantage other than you can swap the sim into an older BlackBerry device and not have to worry about changing the plan to be a BlackBerry plan

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    Email messages sent between the BlackBerry Internet Service and the BlackBerry Internet Service subscriber’s BlackBerry smartphone are not encrypted. When transmitted over the wireless network, the email messages are subject to the existing or available network security model(s).

    This is as good time as any to take a look at the nature of encryption regarding BlackBerry’s Messenger app. Messages over BBM are not encrypted unless you’re using it over the company’s enterprise service, BES, and the admins in your organization enable the encryption option. BIS, which is not used in BlackBerry 10, has never been a secure network, other than using the standard security protocols implemented by mobile carriers over their data connection. BBM messages can be intercepted and read due to having a single global key that is used on every BlackBerry device to unscramble messages.

    These are just copy and pastes from sites I just found regarding this.... I can't say for sure if they are 100% correct so you will have to do your own DD.....

    Quote Originally Posted by akavbb View Post
    First of all thank you. In Greece BIS is more expensive than regular data plan. In order to finally decide if I will keep my BIS or not I would like to know if bis keeps the encryption even for Z10. if it does, maybe it is worth the extra money.
    in order to have some measure of the price difference: 150mb in bis cost as much as 300mb in regular data plan.
    Last edited by Bastar; 03-18-2013 at 10:07 AM.
  13. Frehley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bastar View Post
    Email messages sent between the BlackBerry Internet Service and the BlackBerry Internet Service subscriber’s BlackBerry smartphone are not encrypted. When transmitted over the wireless network, the email messages are subject to the existing or available network security model(s).
    Thanks for the info. What I'm curious about is if anything accessed through the browser using a 9900 through BIS is any more secure than using the browser on the Z10.

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  14. Omnitech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frehley View Post
    Thanks for the info. What I'm curious about is if anything accessed through the browser using a 9900 through BIS is any more secure than using the browser on the Z10.

    As you mention, the browser on the 9900 routes all traffic through RIM/Blackberry's BIS infrastructure before going out to the internet proper. Traffic traversing the BIS network is 'scrambled', but not particularly securely. (ie the encryption key is static and has a predictable link to the specific device that generates the traffic. If you know the tech, you can figure out the key and de-scramble everything) So you might say that browsing on the 9900 is slightly more 'obscured' than browsing on a Z10, assuming you are browsing non-encrypted pages. Which might deter a casual snooper, but not a real bad guy.

    Depends on what your security objectives are. If US or Canadian law enforcement wants access to your surfing traffic, RIM/Blackberry will most likely provide it to them in unscrambled form especially if they have a warrant. (Though recent changes in US statutes sometimes subvert those traditional rights due to 9/11 hysteria)

    In general, if you are surfing solid SSL-encrypted pages you will be fine, though there are some recent attacks on SSL that are a little worrying. (Some browsers have worked around that issue by disabling certain data transport features, but there are not enough config items in the BB10 browser to easily ascertain if that tech is enabled or not. The term for one of the potentially vulnerable protocols is "SPDY".)

    If what you are most concerned about is someone snooping on the traffic itself rather than someone stealing your phone (which with the amount of data on smartphones today is like a total goldmine for 'evil-doers' if it's not locked-down and encrypted), then my suggestion would be to route all your traffic through a VPN, which will improve things greatly, whether or not the data you are accessing is itself encrypted.

    Here's some examples of VPN service providers and one article about them. I'm just providing this list as an example, not endorsing any of them:

    Seven VPN Services You Should Know About | PCMag.com
    https://www.witopia.net/
    https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/
    StrongVPN.com - Providing high speed, unlimited bandwidth, multiple country VPN accounts for over 100,000 users. Since 1995

    HTH
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  15. Frehley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omnitech View Post
    As you mention, the browser on the 9900 routes all traffic through RIM/Blackberry's BIS infrastructure before going out to the internet proper. Traffic traversing the BIS network is 'scrambled', but not particularly securely. (ie the encryption key is static and has a predictable link to the specific device that generates the traffic. If you know the tech, you can figure out the key and de-scramble everything) So you might say that browsing on the 9900 is slightly more 'obscured' than browsing on a Z10, assuming you are browsing non-encrypted pages. Which might deter a casual snooper, but not a real bad guy.

    Depends on what your security objectives are. If US or Canadian law enforcement wants access to your surfing traffic, RIM/Blackberry will most likely provide it to them in unscrambled form especially if they have a warrant. (Though recent changes in US statutes sometimes subvert those traditional rights due to 9/11 hysteria)

    In general, if you are surfing solid SSL-encrypted pages you will be fine, though there are some recent attacks on SSL that are a little worrying. (Some browsers have worked around that issue by disabling certain data transport features, but there are not enough config items in the BB10 browser to easily ascertain if that tech is enabled or not. The term for one of the potentially vulnerable protocols is "SPDY".)

    If what you are most concerned about is someone snooping on the traffic itself rather than someone stealing your phone (which with the amount of data on smartphones today is like a total goldmine for 'evil-doers' if it's not locked-down and encrypted), then my suggestion would be to route all your traffic through a VPN, which will improve things greatly, whether or not the data you are accessing is itself encrypted.

    Here's some examples of VPN service providers and one article about them. I'm just providing this list as an example, not endorsing any of them:

    Seven VPN Services You Should Know About | PCMag.com
    https://www.witopia.net/
    https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/
    StrongVPN.com - Providing high speed, unlimited bandwidth, multiple country VPN accounts for over 100,000 users. Since 1995

    HTH
    Thanks Omnitech, that is a very clear explanation and I appreciate the VPN example info.

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  16. Carmels's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goku_vegeta View Post
    Carriers like Bell force you on a BlackBerry Plan. This can be a good or bad thing depending on your case. Having 1X RIM Provisioning (as it's written) means the phone can access RIM servers and the NOC though BIS. Now that's dandy and all, but the Z10 really doesn't need it as a generic data plan will work. However if you do happen to swap to any other BlackBerry Java OS devices from time to time, that 1X RIM Provisioning is what allows you to use BBM, Email, Facebook, Twitter, pretty much any data while out of WiFi on BlackBerry Java OS devices.

    As far as I know here in Canada, BlackBerry plans are identical for the Z10 as say a generic plan. Basically the only real difference is you'll see something that says 1X RIM Provisioning as a feature on the plan on your Z10 if you were on Bell (Although I'm assuming you, referring to the OP, are on AT&T).

    As far as BIS is concerned. You can't really "keep" it, the data compression is now gone, obviously the device will still access the NOC for things like BlackBerry Messenger and BlackBerry World. Even if you have a "BIS" plan nothing is different other than the account having RIM provisioning. I believe that BlackBerry stated somewhere (I think it was in a video, which might actually have been a CrackBerry interview/information/demo type of video) where they explained how they've made the devices more secure with more security within the OS and on the software side of things.

    Bottom line: In my opinion, the Z10 is fairly secure. Definitely more secure than other platforms out there. Is it as secure as BlackBerry Java OS devices? Debatable, BIS did offer compression and "security" although from what I understand that security was just the scrambling of messages, therefore BBM messages were not able to be decoded which prompted various nations Governments to have talks with BlackBerry about that.

    Hope that helps
    Just a slight correction goku, it might be displayed as a 1X provisioned BIS plan on your bills but I can assure you the plan can support up to and including HSPA+ data speeds. I know because I'm currently running a BES provisioned BlackBerry plan coming from a 9800 to a Z10 through Bell Mobility.

    I can't get LTE on the phone but it's either I get that and lose my TRUE ULT data plan or stick with HSPA+ speeds and keep my provisioned BlackBerry BES data plan.

    P.S. - love the DBZ names!

    Posted via CB10 using a Z10
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  17. goku_vegeta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carmels View Post
    Just a slight correction goku, it might be displayed as a 1X provisioned BIS plan on your bills but I can assure you the plan can support up to and including HSPA+ data speeds. I know because I'm currently running a BES provisioned BlackBerry plan coming from a 9800 to a Z10 through Bell Mobility.

    I can't get LTE on the phone but it's either I get that and lose my TRUE ULT data plan or stick with HSPA+ speeds and keep my provisioned BlackBerry BES data plan.

    P.S. - love the DBZ names!

    Posted via CB10 using a Z10
    I believe a US carrier also had something similar in regards of no unlimited data when you switch out to a 4G LTE device. Bell actually managed to screw up the account by not putting RIM provisioning on the account when I moved to a rate plan with more data.

    Kind of funny when I had to tell them what to do as the representative had no idea what was wrong

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  18. Carmels's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goku_vegeta View Post
    I believe a US carrier also had something similar in regards of no unlimited data when you switch out to a 4G LTE device. Bell actually managed to screw up the account by not putting RIM provisioning on the account when I moved to a rate plan with more data.

    Kind of funny when I had to tell them what to do as the representative had no idea what was wrong

    Posted via CB10
    Sadly, this is all to common an occurrence these days. I find employees to be hired to fill a schedule and not based on either technical or professional conduct,

    Posted via CB10 using a Z10
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  19. Omnitech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carmels View Post
    Sadly, this is all to common an occurrence these days. I find employees to be hired to fill a schedule and not based on either technical or professional conduct,

    One of the problems is that once email and mobile technology became mainstream and a mass consumer product, the vast majority of questions fielded by support reps were inane things that could have been answered by reading the documentation, etc. Not really practicable to hire highly-skilled people to staff those "front lines", so these days I think the major challenge is how do people with better background/understanding bypass the 1st-level support reps, and do vendors make this a straightforward process.

    Many "consumer-oriented" companies make that either difficult or impossible. The ones that don't, typically get my money.

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