1. mallinj's Avatar
    Tour users, I think the Tour release was the final straw that broke Verizon's back and got RIM kicked out of the bed. I did some reading yesterday on the history of Verizon for blog post and found the reading quite interesting. Some of this is based on research and reliable 3rd party estimates (with regard to advertising budgets) but some of it is pure speculation. Curious to get reactions.. not necessarily debate but I find this stuff interesting.

    1. The relationship between RIM and Blackberry has deteriorated, particularly with regard to Verizon selling RIM devices to non-business customers.

    2. The Storm 1 was a disaster. It was in development 2 years and was backed by a $100m Verizon advertising campaign (WSJ reported). Initial sales were low and the device did not gain nearly the acceptance expected.

    3. Storm 2 in the works.

    4. TOUR (my phone) was another disaster. Trackball and software errors like the 552 error. A fringe financial analyst reported a 50% return rate on the Tour over trackball issues. Stock price tanked on the news.

    5. As noted here on Crackberry, the Tour received very little promotion from the carriers, and Verizon specifically.

    Pure speculation: (A) VERY dumb to launch on two carriers simultaneously. They were looking to free rider on each others ads and very, very few ads ran. (B) Perhaps Verizon and Sprint knew of the defective trackball pre-release. They didn't want to promote a defective product. Probably neither could delay the launch because the other carrier could go ahead an green light it. Sorta like a game of chicken. Verizon ran virtually no Tour ads -- nada. Those that Verizon ran, long post-release, touted the quality of its network and nothing about the phone at all.

    Presumably the carriers tested pre-release Tours. Perhaps the carriers were aware of the problems with the trackball and did not want to tarnish their reputations by promoting the Tour. Maybe it was the legal department speaking. Anyhow, the Tour advertisements Verizon ran post-launch touted the quality of their coverage and not the product itself.

    6. Verizon and RIM now "sleeping in separate beds." Verizon cozied up to Droid. Rumors surfaced that this would happen in September.

    7. Storm 2 launched 9 days before Droid. Real sleeper. Hardly advertised (couldn't find estimates of ad budget). Droid is backed by a $100m ad campaign. Droid ads tout features, not exclusively coverage, unlike Verizon's Tour Blackberry ads. Verizon actually wants to sell the device.

    8. What's the future for Verizon and RIM? I think they will bet on the Droid until they get the iPhone and perhaps even after.

    So, did the Tour contribute to everything heading south? I think so. Probably the financial analyst in #4 got it right, even though his %s on overall Tour returns was probably on the high side.

    What can RIM do to right the ship? Better testing/QC, among other things. We might scoff at the Droid from time to time but it seems like most early-adopters are happy with the product. After the Tour, I wouldn't buy another RIM product without doing some heavy research here on CB and elsewhere. I don't trust that the RIM stamp means quality.

    P.S. I think I approached this with some degree of objectivity. I was initially going to write a piece about Verizon throwing RIM under the bus and ultimately ended up with a very different take. Maybe the counter-argument is, what someone said below, that the carriers pushed RIM too hard.
    Last edited by mallinj; 11-18-09 at 11:05 AM.
    11-18-09 07:22 AM
  2. veevans01's Avatar
    Very interesting information. My tour works great but I did play with the droid and it is an awesome device.
    11-18-09 07:30 AM
  3. jmcd1027's Avatar
    Not everyone has problems with their Tours, remember.... No one really posts about their phones working perfectly. There are tons of people happy with their Verizon BlackBerries. So the "heavy research" doesn't really stand if you aren't reading EVERY story, right?

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    11-18-09 07:31 AM
  4. mallinj's Avatar
    I agree that people with no problems tend not to visit forums and write. Some people were very satisfied. Others weren't. I'm curious what the "official" Tour return rate was. Maybe the financial analyst got it right and maybe he didn't. I'm not sure.
    11-18-09 07:37 AM
  5. j.p.hatfield's Avatar
    Tour users, I think the Tour release was the final straw that broke Verizon's back and got RIM kicked out of the bed. I did some reading yesterday on the history of Verizon for blog post and found the reading quite interesting. Some of this is based on research and reliable 3rd party estimates (with regard to advertising budgets) but some of it is pure speculation. Curious to get reactions.. not necessarily debate but I find this stuff interesting.

    1. The relationship between RIM and Blackberry has deteriorated, particularly with regard to Verizon selling RIM devices to non-business customers.

    2. The Storm 1 was a disaster. It was in development 2 years and was backed by a $100m Verizon advertising campaign (WSJ reported). Initial sales were low and the device did not gain nearly the acceptance expected.

    3. Storm 2 in the works.

    4. TOUR (my phone) was another disaster. Trackball and software errors like the 552 error. A fringe financial analyst reported a 50% return rate on the Tour over trackball issues. Stock price tanked on the news.

    5. As noted here on Crackberry, the Tour received very little promotion from the carriers, and Verizon specifically.

    Pure speculation: (A) VERY dumb to launch on two carriers simultaneously. They were looking to free rider on each others ads and very, very few ads ran. (B) Perhaps Verizon and Sprint knew of the defective trackball pre-release. They didn't want to promote a defective product. Probably neither could delay the launch because the other carrier could go ahead an green light it. Sorta like a game of chicken. Verizon ran virtually no Tour ads -- nada. Those that Verizon ran, long post-release, touted the quality of its network and nothing about the phone at all.

    Presumably the carriers tested pre-release Tours. Perhaps the carriers were aware of the problems with the trackball and did not want to tarnish their reputations by promoting the Tour. Maybe it was the legal department speaking. Anyhow, the Tour advertisements Verizon ran post-launch touted the quality of their coverage and not the product itself.

    6. Verizon and RIM now "sleeping in separate beds." Verizon cozied up to Droid. Rumors surfaced that this would happen in September.

    7. Storm 2 launched 9 days before Droid. Real sleeper. Hardly advertised (couldn't find estimates of ad budget). Droid is backed by a $100m ad campaign. Droid ads tout features, not exclusively coverage, unlike Verizon's Tour Blackberry ads. Verizon actually wants to sell the device.

    8. What's the future for Verizon and RIM? I think they will bet on the Droid until they get the iPhone and perhaps even after.

    So, did the Tour contribute to everything heading south? I think so. Probably the financial analyst in #4 got it right, even though his %s on overall Tour returns was probably on the high side.

    What can RIM do to right the ship? Better testing/QC, among other things. We might scoff at the Droid from time to time but it seems like most early-adopters are happy with the product. After the Tour, I wouldn't buy another RIM product without doing some heavy research here on CB and elsewhere. I don't trust that the RIM stamp means quality.
    great info and I think the Carriers were to part of the blame having pushed RIM to meet their demands hence the issues in the beginning with Tour and I'm not sure touchscreen tech and the Storm 1 or 2 is a good match with BlackBerry anyway...but to each his own. With the Droid..just how many of the those "thousands of apps" are free???? And as with any new device there will be complaints (and alot of them) and issues so let's see where that weird/scary red eye ends up...for me it will always be a Berry...
    11-18-09 07:55 AM
  6. mjbesen310's Avatar
    if anything, the Storm is the phone that broke verizons back
    11-18-09 08:04 AM
  7. mallinj's Avatar
    great info and I think the Carriers were to part of the blame having pushed RIM to meet their demands hence the issues in the beginning with Tour and I'm not sure touchscreen tech and the Storm 1 or 2 is a good match with BlackBerry anyway...but to each his own. With the Droid..just how many of the those "thousands of apps" are free???? And as with any new device there will be complaints (and alot of them) and issues so let's see where that weird/scary red eye ends up...for me it will always be a Berry...
    I don't know too much about Android Market but Google threw some significant cash prizes to developers that developed the best apps. So, some of the better ones could be free... maybe the developers were aiming for the prizes.

    Apple's entire # of apps advertising campaign really misses the mark. I don't care what some app thinks of my farts. I'd be happy with 10 solid apps that do what I want.
    11-18-09 08:04 AM
  8. dbone15's Avatar
    This is some great info and makes a lot of sense. My hope is that with the planned release of over 10 blackberries in 2010 by RIM, that vzw gets a few top knotch devices exclusively which will hopefully right the ship. I have two upgrades for 2010 so this is partly wishful thinking as well.
    11-18-09 08:15 AM
  9. Barredbard's Avatar
    I don't know about Verizon, but I know exactly why Sprint didn't run ads on the Tour; they had agreed to advertise another product that came out shortly before the Tour to the detriment of all else. Accoording to an article, which I read when I was hungrily devouring anything that mentioned the Blackberry Tour, Sprint was being careful not to in any way compromise their release of the Palm Pre. They had mounted an extensive campaign (if you have a TV, I am pretty sure you must have seen at least one Palm Pre commercial). They had agreed, among other things, and in exchange for exclusivity, to market Palm's new OS above all. The Palm Pre - Sprint agreement was an exclusive contractual arrangement; the agreement with Rim for the Blackberry Tour was not. Nothing unusual about this; both Verion and Sprint also had the 8830 WE, which the Tour was replacing. The Sprint CEO made a decision that many would have made; there was little incentive to antagonize Palm with whom Sprint had an exclusive agreement, for the Tour which lacked an exclusive agreement. The Palm Pre was released a few weeks before the Tour, and there was speculation that the closeness of the release dates infuriated Palm, in any case. It is my opinion (not proven by stastics) that the Palm Pre is a better product, and has sold more units. Unfortunately, after my long romance with my World Edition 8830 (I have a shrine dedicated to it), I was pretty hooked on Blackberry when I ordered my Tour. I don't know if my fervor would have been there if the Tour had been my very first Blackberry.
    Last edited by Barredbard; 11-18-09 at 08:51 AM.
    11-18-09 08:19 AM
  10. GG1's Avatar
    I don't care what some app thinks of my farts.
    There's an app for that?
    =P

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    11-18-09 08:19 AM
  11. shaneyfelt's Avatar
    We purchased 4 Tours for our business. 3 have been changed out. 2 for trackball issues. 1 for an error that caused the phone to reboot and the cycle could not be stopped.

    50%+ sounds about right. However, if all they have to do is change out a trackball and replace the body for scratches and put it back in service, not sure that kills them.

    Just for the record, the Tour is the best phone I have ever had - however the internet speed is crappy at best in home area - almost useless.
    Last edited by shaneyfelt; 11-18-09 at 08:23 AM.
    11-18-09 08:20 AM
  12. mallinj's Avatar
    RIMM stock was cut by at least one analyst today. I sold off weeks ago, thank goodness. No position on it now but shorting it wouldn't be unreasonable.
    11-18-09 11:03 AM
  13. Judgment Tay's Avatar
    My trackball is a tad jumpy and unresponsive at times, but it doesn't kill the phone. Not enough of an issue for me to return it. Everything else about the phone works flawlessly for me. Best phone I've ever had (Storm, Pearl previously). If the Tour had the trackpad, it'd be perfect. Although I do have friends that have gone through multiple Tours already, so I believe the stats noted above.

    I think these notes are accurate, but I'm happy with my Tour. I think one previous poster was correct....Storm severed the relationship if nothing else. What a piece of crap that device was.
    11-18-09 11:25 AM
  14. mallinj's Avatar
    As an aside, why doesn't RIM focus on making a few solid devices instead of an army of products? I'm thinking one candybar (Essex), one touchscreen (and don't call it the Storm 3), and one combined (the rumored "Mr. T"). The whole candy store approach seems dumb to me. Even if someone wants a Blackberry, it's difficult to figure out which one.

    Reduce manufacturing costs too, like the move to manufacture in Mexico. I know this is heresy for an iconic Canadian company but with virtually all other phones being manufactured in China, I'm not sure how RIM can compete.

    The co-CEO thing is beyond strange. It has been the subject of plenty of press but nothing really favorable.
    11-18-09 11:34 AM
  15. Misterb's Avatar
    As an aside, why doesn't RIM focus on making a few solid devices instead of an army of products? I'm thinking one candybar (Essex), one touchscreen (and don't call it the Storm 3), and one combined (the rumored "Mr. T"). The whole candy store approach seems dumb to me. Even if someone wants a Blackberry, it's difficult to figure out which one.

    Reduce manufacturing costs too, like the move to manufacture in Mexico. I know this is heresy for an iconic Canadian company but with virtually all other phones being manufactured in China, I'm not sure how RIM can compete.

    The co-CEO thing is beyond strange. It has been the subject of plenty of press but nothing really favorable.
    I would have to agree with using China instead of Mexico for assembly. Please don't anyone take this the wrong way. I'm not being racist. ****, I'm touting using an Asian over a Mexican, so it isn't racist. I just don't think that the general Mexican population is very good at putting together products. They are better at other things. Just not assembly. It is sort of like the same reason why I've noticed you can pay Mexicans to do yard work, but you generally don't want to let them paint your house. Great at yard work, but they'll totally botch up your paint job by painting your brick, shingles, etc. I think the same thing applies to putting together a BlackBerry. Again, not saying that ALL Mexicans are bad. Just stating that overall, I think the Chinese are better at this.

    RIM's design of the Tour, for example is breathtaking. The phone is a thing of beauty, and feels great in the hand. The features it has are awesome, and I love the thing, along with the generally robust software. The thing I DON'T like, is the quality control. I'm on my third or fourth one. (I forget now). Poor trackball and signal strength. They need to get this stuff fixed, and it sounds like they probably will with the Tour 2, but it is NOT fair to make someone like me pay for that device.
    11-18-09 12:33 PM
  16. XberryXaddictionX's Avatar
    not everyone has problems with their tours, remember.... No one really posts about their phones working perfectly. There are tons of people happy with their verizon blackberries. So the "heavy research" doesn't really stand if you aren't reading every story, right?

    Posted from my crackberry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    i love my tour! Works perfectly! :-d
    11-18-09 12:43 PM
  17. r.wats75's Avatar
    I would have to agree with using China instead of Mexico for assembly. Please don't anyone take this the wrong way. I'm not being racist. ****, I'm touting using an Asian over a Mexican, so it isn't racist. I just don't think that the general Mexican population is very good at putting together products. They are better at other things. Just not assembly. It is sort of like the same reason why I've noticed you can pay Mexicans to do yard work, but you generally don't want to let them paint your house. Great at yard work, but they'll totally botch up your paint job by painting your brick, shingles, etc. I think the same thing applies to putting together a BlackBerry. Again, not saying that ALL Mexicans are bad. Just stating that overall, I think the Chinese are better at this.

    RIM's design of the Tour, for example is breathtaking. The phone is a thing of beauty, and feels great in the hand. The features it has are awesome, and I love the thing, along with the generally robust software. The thing I DON'T like, is the quality control. I'm on my third or fourth one. (I forget now). Poor trackball and signal strength. They need to get this stuff fixed, and it sounds like they probably will with the Tour 2, but it is NOT fair to make someone like me pay for that device.
    I know you have the best of intentions and don't believe you're being a racist, but making sweeping generalizations about entire ethnicities is inherently racist. It's like when people say white people can't dance or that black people are good at basketball. There are plenty of white people who dance quite well and there are, likewise, plenty of black people who suck at basketball.
    11-18-09 01:16 PM
  18. granadzo's Avatar
    I know you have the best of intentions and don't believe you're being a racist, but making sweeping generalizations about entire ethnicities is inherently racist. It's like when people say white people can't dance or that black people are good at basketball. There are plenty of white people who dance quite well and there are, likewise, plenty of black people who suck at basketball.
    This is what happens when you are sheltered from the rest of the world.
    11-18-09 03:08 PM
  19. kschaefer3's Avatar
    Completely off subject, but a lot of Mexican construction workers...I hope they can put things togther well. That being said I think people already know what Verizon offers with BB's and I think launching a full new line of phone (Droid) would warrant an ad campaign than a new BB which everyone already knows Verizon has. Yes the Tour had problems, but I think a lot of people are happy with the product now. I love my and would go with Verizon over other networks especially for BB's! Still can't wait for 5.0...
    11-18-09 03:18 PM
  20. mallinj's Avatar
    Still can't wait for 5.0...
    I hate to sound so negative but 5.0 should have been out before the Tour release. The 552 errors are COMPLETELY inexcusable. How many other phones brick upon app installs? I was a RIM apologist for a long time and an adamant RIM defender. Now, with better hardware coming from other manufacturers and better OS coming from Google and others (like Maemo 5 from Nokia), RIM lost its edge.

    Maybe to the business customer, the BB is the way to go. They can tout good security features and physical keyboards. Outside of CB, I don't know a single non-business customer that intends to stay with BB.

    On the whole mexico/china thing, I want to clear something up. I wasn't suggesting that Mexico can't build a good electronics product at all (someone wrote that I implied that). To the contrary, I think the Mexico builds of the Tour were actually better than the Canadian builds. Search the forum for info. But, my point was that RIM needs to reduce manufacturing costs and assembling in Mexico was a step in the right direction. Quality devices can be made in Mexico or China.
    11-18-09 04:01 PM
  21. Misterb's Avatar
    I know you have the best of intentions and don't believe you're being a racist, but making sweeping generalizations about entire ethnicities is inherently racist. It's like when people say white people can't dance or that black people are good at basketball. There are plenty of white people who dance quite well and there are, likewise, plenty of black people who suck at basketball.
    Hey, I'm white- and I would fully agree that I can't dance and that a black dude could likely kick my **** in basketball LOL. I tried to make it a point to say that of course this is not the case with ALL people of a particular race, but I think it would be tough to argue that Asians aren't typically better at math, for example, than another population on average. Just like Asians are typically smaller in stature than black or white people. It's a fact. Doesn't mean that there aren't exceptions to the rule, like that guy that plays for the Rockets Yao Ming, or however you spell it.

    Anyway, not trying to offend anyone. Just saying I think the Chinese could put together a better phone than Mexicans.
    11-18-09 04:11 PM
  22. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    What carrier really is heavily promoting RIM products now?

    VZW is pushing the Droid.

    AT&T is pushing the iPhone.

    Sprint is pushing the Pre.
    11-18-09 04:11 PM
  23. r.wats75's Avatar
    Hey, I'm white- and I would fully agree that I can't dance and that a black dude could likely kick my **** in basketball LOL. I tried to make it a point to say that of course this is not the case with ALL people of a particular race, but I think it would be tough to argue that Asians aren't typically better at math, for example, than another population on average. Just like Asians are typically smaller in stature than black or white people. It's a fact. Doesn't mean that there aren't exceptions to the rule, like that guy that plays for the Rockets Yao Ming, or however you spell it.

    Anyway, not trying to offend anyone. Just saying I think the Chinese could put together a better phone than Mexicans.
    You are aware that a stereotype is not a fact, correct? And I'm aware you aren't trying to offend anyone, I'm just trying to impart knowledge that will help keep you from seeming like a bigot or a racist.
    11-18-09 04:56 PM
  24. Shemp1973's Avatar
    I don't know about VZW, but the Tour is the straw that broke my back. After 3 Storms and now 3 Tours to get a RIM device without a hardware issue, I will not likely buy another RIM device, regardless of what network it's on.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    11-18-09 05:00 PM
  25. SEVEN1FO's Avatar
    Hmmm. Very interesting information. I do agree that the Tour was very under-promoted and that Verizon promoted the Droid very heavily.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    11-18-09 05:07 PM
47 12
LINK TO POST COPIED TO CLIPBOARD