[Mr. Marco]

Torch fizzle: 'RIM screwed itself' - Video - Business News

This isn't going very well for RIM.

[dLo GSR]

honestly this is an opinion piece and it's not very well put together.

[scorpiodsu]

I'm not sure who would be surprised. This really isn't a good device in the grand scheme of things. Comparisions to iPhone and Android phones are inevitable and anyone who thinks that this device shouldn't be compared is kidding themselves. Quite honestly, this phones serves to appease currect blackberry users and those that defected to other platforms but needed a reason to come back. Blackberry devices are best served in the corporate environment. And if anyone thought this would be a "game changing" RIM product they lost their mind. This device is nowhere near anything that resembles a "game changer".

[Mr. Marco]

honestly this is an opinion piece and it's not very well put together.

Well they show both sides of the story and the RIM stock price tells the tale. And more stories like this are going to be put out, and more and more people will read and see more stories like this one. RIM could very easily continue sinking further. They need to wake up. It boogles my mind why RIM doesn't speed up their device development and start pumping out really slick devices. If anything at least put out devices that compete with what's out there now if you aren't keen on developing devices that set the pace for everyone else in the market.

[scorpiodsu]

I stated it several times that blackberries were never meant to become consumer devices. Blackberries accidentally became a consumer device because there was no competition. But more and more people wanted to have access to email and for some they wanted to look cool and/or important. So blackberry became the smartphone of choice because the only comp was Windows Mobile and Palm. But now you 2 companies that focus on consumers and make better devices. The corporate model for RIM doesn't work for consumers when you have the Giants of Google and Apple as your competition. RIM needs serious help. Like I said, I never thought it was RIM's intentions to become a consumer device. I think demand came and they were the obvious choice. Now there are more choices that give consumers the "bells and whistles" that RIM couldn't.

[djransom]

I stated it several times that blackberries were never meant to become consumer devices. Blackberries accidentally became a consumer device because there was no competition. But more and more people wanted to have access to email and for some they wanted to look cool and/or important. So blackberry became the smartphone of choice because the only comp was Windows Mobile and Palm. But now you 2 companies that focus on consumers and make better devices. The corporate model for RIM doesn't work for consumers when you have the Giants of Google and Apple as your competition. RIM needs serious help. Like I said, I never thought it was RIM's intentions to become a consumer device. I think demand came and they were the obvious choice. Now there are more choices that give consumers the "bells and whistles" that RIM couldn't.

I hear you and disagree with some of the comments. Apple does NOT give the consumer what they want. Apple gives the consumer what Apple chooses to give them when they decide they want to and then label it as being revoluationary. I gave up my iPhone 4 Sunday afternoon for the Torch due to the horrible reception. It seems like RIM is trying to play it safe, albeit that it's doing more bad than good, but it works for their consumer base. Would I say that RIM is in trouble, possibly, but only time will truly tell the story.

[dLo GSR]

Apple does NOT give the consumer what they want. Apple gives the consumer what Apple chooses to give them when they decide they want to and then label it as being revoluationary.

I completely agree with that.

[scorpiodsu]

I hear you and disagree with some of the comments. Apple does NOT give the consumer what they want. Apple gives the consumer what Apple chooses to give them when they decide they want to and then label it as being revoluationary. I gave up my iPhone 4 Sunday afternoon for the Torch due to the horrible reception. It seems like RIM is trying to play it safe, albeit that it's doing more bad than good, but it works for their consumer base. Would I say that RIM is in trouble, possibly, but only time will truly tell the story.

No. Whether you agree or not, Apple does give the consumer what they want. Something that's simple to use and doesn't take a lot of getting use to. Something that's flashy, has bells and whistles and make people feel cool. Now whether these things are important is another discussion. I didn't say I agree with everything Apple does but they meet more of their needs and WANTS than blackberry devices.

"Apple gives the consumer what Apple chooses to give them when they decide they want to and then label it as being revoluationary".

Ok so no other company including RIM gives people what they deem necessary? Yes it's only Apple. No one else but them. Google gives you all their proprietary services for the same reason Apple gives you all theirs. They are no different. Both companies want you to use their services for everything.

If RIM could do the same thing they would. But they can't because they don't have it. Period.

[Mr. Marco]

I hear you and disagree with some of the comments. Apple does NOT give the consumer what they want. Apple gives the consumer what Apple chooses to give them when they decide they want to and then label it as being revoluationary. I gave up my iPhone 4 Sunday afternoon for the Torch due to the horrible reception. It seems like RIM is trying to play it safe, albeit that it's doing more bad than good, but it works for their consumer base. Would I say that RIM is in trouble, possibly, but only time will truly tell the story.

Don't really understand the point here. The consumer is eating up everything Apple decides to give them with no satisfaction of their appetite in sight. All I see is the core Blackberry community that backs RIM and an ever increasing number of negative news stories and consumers jumping ship to other devices.

[djransom]

Don't really understand the point here. The consumer is eating up everything Apple decides to give them with no satisfaction of their appetite in sight. All I see is the core Blackberry community that backs RIM and an ever increasing number of negative news stories and consumers jumping ship to other devices.

So what you're saying is pretty soon the RIM boat will sink and we as BB consumers will be forced to pick between WM7, Apple, and Android correct?

[scorpiodsu]

Don't really understand the point here. The consumer is eating up everything Apple decides to give them with no satisfaction of their appetite in sight. All I see is the core Blackberry community that backs RIM and an ever increasing number of negative news stories and consumers jumping ship to other devices.

They had no point.

I agree with you. Obviously, their hate for Apple has skewed their perspective of reality. The only people that like this device are people never wanted to give up blackberry and those that defected but never felt comfortable with something else so it's like coming back home. Sure there are some people going to it that never had a blackberry but very little.

[fecurtis]

No. Whether you agree or not, Apple does give the consumer what they want. Something that's simple to use and doesn't take a lot of getting use to. Something that's flashy, has bells and whistles and make people feel cool. Now whether these things are important is another discussion. I didn't say I agree with everything Apple does but they meet more of their needs and WANTS than blackberry devices.

"Apple gives the consumer what Apple chooses to give them when they decide they want to and then label it as being revoluationary".

Ok so no other company including RIM gives people what they deem necessary? Yes it's only Apple. No one else but them. Google gives you all their proprietary services for the same reason Apple gives you all theirs. They are no different. Both companies want you to use their services for everything.

If RIM could do the same thing they would. But they can't because they don't have it. Period.

Not quite. Apple tells consumers what they want...consumers get excited about it.

Apple: "You want Flash on your phones? No no, you don't want that, we don't like Adobe."

[Thanontos]

Time to start trending into other markets too, like the other entertainment smartphones. Maybe the problem is a lot of consumers don't want to see blackberry as a bussiness device and though their phones meet the expectations of your average business person, it is obvious it does not delive to the consumer that focus more on entertainment. Better screens, camera's, and processing power is a big deciding factor to tech savvy people. The generation growing up now has had computers their whole life so naturally like to trend to 'bells and whistles'. From a business stanpoint, RIM is missing out on a growing market and it would only help gain MORE control over market share and increase stocks.

RIM in trouble.... I think not, they have plenty of time and I don't see them falling behind apple or google for another good few years. However they will eventually need to consider delivering devices that attract more than one user base. I don't think they have to make only entertainment devices or only business devices, but maybe a device that uses the same model, much like car companies do today. They can make two versions, one less expensive that works for the business consumer, and another pumped up slightly more costly entertainment powerhouse. That way the cost of designing the phone could stay relatively low and the things to change are the components...

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[mpaquette]

I stated it several times that blackberries were never meant to become consumer devices. Blackberries accidentally became a consumer device because there was no competition. But more and more people wanted to have access to email and for some they wanted to look cool and/or important. So blackberry became the smartphone of choice because the only comp was Windows Mobile and Palm. But now you 2 companies that focus on consumers and make better devices. The corporate model for RIM doesn't work for consumers when you have the Giants of Google and Apple as your competition. RIM needs serious help. Like I said, I never thought it was RIM's intentions to become a consumer device. I think demand came and they were the obvious choice. Now there are more choices that give consumers the "bells and whistles" that RIM couldn't.

Wow, this is the most intelligent post I've read on Crackberry.com in a while. I couldn't agree with you more.

[scorpiodsu]

Not quite. Apple tells consumers what they want...consumers get excited about it.

Apple: "You want Flash on your phones? No no, you don't want that, we don't like Adobe."

Like I said I don't agree with everything Apple does. But again, when you buy someone's product you are restricted to what they want to provide. No some companies will go the extra mile and be open to providing everything. And others won't. Apple has their reasons for not wanting flash. For them they don't like how it functions and believe it will be a thing of the past. But you don't have to like it or use it. Apple never told the consumers "you don't want flash". They said "we don't like flash". You can spin it how ever you like.

"Apple tells consumers what they want.....and consumers get excited about it"

Well duh. How many companies do you think wish they has a following like Apple? Many. Google does the same thing. They want you to use all their services and products to be productive. Now it's up to the consumers to decide. Everyone has a choice and it's up to them to make it. No one MAKES anyone do anything. And you guys are foolish for even suggesting that consumers are dumb and they are controlled by companies.

I guess it's the same for RIM and Android users too? The RIM diehard salivate over the next best blackberry because it's RIM. They laughed at the iPad before it came out but can't wait for the blackpad. Same thing with Android users. Those guys can't wait for the next Android with a 2HZ processor and 1GB RAM and 64GB onboard memory. Verizon can release another Droid next month and they will flock too. Each user is no different. We all buy from the companies we like and for the most part strictly because it's made by that company.

[Tetragrammaton]

I agree with scorpiodsu and djransom, although it might sound controversial at first.

I work for a Vodafone franchiser in Germany, and I tried so many devices and got hooked with Blackberry.

The Berrys came from the business corner and IMHO with two devices became attractive for consumers.

I used Windows Mobiles devices and Symbian stuff for quite a long period, just because I could use them in business as well as "playing" with it in terms of installing useful (and unuseful tools) software, when they were called software and not "apps" in general.

Then with the Pearl 8100 and the Curve 8310 I had two devices which were very reliable, and they were able to be used as an MP3- and video-player. There were rudimentary free software. Then came the Bold 9000, and it went on, well (for me).

BUT:
Then the iPhone hit town and the Androids.

Part of their popularity was a fluent, almost inituively easy to use GUI.

The needs and the interest of consumers changed.

I still remember customers in Germany thinking of smartphones as sole business toys paired with expensive data plans.

Now the dataplans got cheaper, and everyone is into shmardfoones (sorry, had to do that, for some customers pronounce it that way)... and they want it to be/to have

a) easy to use
b) cheaper prices (not exactly for iPhones)
c) it as a status symbol/image (iPhone)
d) a device, which a friend, family member etc. already has

I kinda agree with scorpiodsu, because the Berrys tend to be perceived as business machines. And kinda sad: Blackberry does not want to pressed in that corner, but does not do enough to counteract as being forced/put into that clich�.

The people I sold the Berrys to (sans Storm I) were convinced as I told them, that the Berrys are really reliable as they came from businessusers, and that they had to be reliable, because of that. Most of those customers (if open minded) kept their Berrys and after two years traded for a newer version, and were willing to even pay a bit more either for the voice/data-plan and for the device.

BUT: There was no "help" from RIM in TV, promotions, print media and so on.

Ergo: The ones who have a Blackberry, the ones who were and are convinced of the OS and the devices keep them and kinda suggest their folks to try them out.

IF RIM had done more into getting rid of being shoved in the business corner, AND arrange more interesting Apps, it may have changed the image and the reputation more to the "regular" customers.

BACK to iPhone and Androids:
Here I agree with djransom. Apples strategy worked out like a charm. They presented a device with an incredible marketing machine, which was almost being a brainwashing-process.

I suddenly got to know very old folks, who always asked us if we had a "simple phone without a camera and other gizmos" asked us for an "iPod or iPhone".

Now it is as if Apple can dictate whatever they want, the people will take it... no matter how good and how new the technical stuff appears.

Some customers really think, that Apple has invented touchscreen-devices.

The great advantage of the iPhones and the droids is, that they have a vast market for their apps.

Something Blackberry does not offer... yet!

[gadgetteer]

about how bad RIMM is doing. I've only seen one post about the acquisition of QNX. I've been on the QNX website it appears they have some capabiliites to create hardware and software that RIMM could use without having to surrender to Android (which I can't really see them doing). If RIMM were to go with Android then they would just be another part of a crowd.

[scorpiodsu]

I agree with scorpiodsu and djransom, although it might sound controversial at first.

I work for a Vodafone franchiser in Germany, and I tried so many devices and got hooked with Blackberry.

The Berrys came from the business corner and IMHO with two devices became attractive for consumers.

I used Windows Mobiles devices and Symbian stuff for quite a long period, just because I could use them in business as well as "playing" with it in terms of installing useful (and unuseful tools) software, when they were called software and not "apps" in general.

Then with the Pearl 8100 and the Curve 8310 I had two devices which were very reliable, and they were able to be used as an MP3- and video-player. There were rudimentary free software. Then came the Bold 9000, and it went on, well (for me).

BUT:
Then the iPhone hit town and the Androids.

Part of their popularity was a fluent, almost inituively easy to use GUI.

The needs and the interest of consumers changed.

I still remember customers in Germany thinking of smartphones as sole business toys paired with expensive data plans.

Now the dataplans got cheaper, and everyone is into shmardfoones (sorry, had to do that, for some customers pronounce it that way)... and they want it to be/to have

a) easy to use
b) cheaper prices (not exactly for iPhones)
c) it as a status symbol/image (iPhone)
d) a device, which a friend, family member etc. already has

I kinda agree with scorpiodsu, because the Berrys tend to be perceived as business machines. And kinda sad: Blackberry does not want to pressed in that corner, but does not do enough to counteract as being forced/put into that clich�.

The people I sold the Berrys to (sans Storm I) were convinced as I told them, that the Berrys are really reliable as they came from businessusers, and that they had to be reliable, because of that. Most of those customers (if open minded) kept their Berrys and after two years traded for a newer version, and were willing to even pay a bit more either for the voice/data-plan and for the device.

BUT: There was no "help" from RIM in TV, promotions, print media and so on.

Ergo: The ones who have a Blackberry, the ones who were and are convinced of the OS and the devices keep them and kinda suggest their folks to try them out.

IF RIM had done more into getting rid of being shoved in the business corner, AND arrange more interesting Apps, it may have changed the image and the reputation more to the "regular" customers.

BACK to iPhone and Androids:
Here I agree with djransom. Apples strategy worked out like a charm. They presented a device with an incredible marketing machine, which was almost being a brainwashing-process.

I suddenly got to know very old folks, who always asked us if we had a "simple phone without a camera and other gizmos" asked us for an "iPod or iPhone".

Now it is as if Apple can dictate whatever they want, the people will take it... no matter how good and how new the technical stuff appears.

Some customers really think, that Apple has invented touchscreen-devices.

The great advantage of the iPhones and the droids is, that they have a vast market for their apps.

Something Blackberry does not offer... yet!

Great post. I do honestly think blackberries were never meant for consumers but found their way in our homes. I too jumped on the bandwagon back in 05. But even back then they were still in the "business" section of the store. Now there is no business section. That line has been blurred. Blackberries in their current state will lose the consumer market. RIM will still have a hold on the corporate market for a long time but as Apple and Google work on getting their devices more secure and companies start adopting these platforms (as many already do) RIM will now have to worry about those execs that want to be productive but also have fun when they are away. There will be no reason for 2 of my managers to carry both a blackberry and their iPhone.

[xandermac]

"Apple showed the slowest quarterly volume growth of just 13 percent, while the volume of mobile web browsing from Android phones in the US grew by 400 percent for the same period"

"BlackBerry retained the highest volume of mobile web visits during the second quarter, accounting for 37 percent of visits to mobile websites in the US — a 20 percent sequential rise in volume overall"

"Even with the advent of Apples new iAd platform and Google’s acquisition of AdMob, BlackBerry still represents the best volume opportunity for mobile advertising in the USA"

OHHHH NOOOOO, Apple must be doomed!!!!!!

24 August 2010

Apple Loses 16% Mobile Web Market Share While Android Volume Increases 400% | Mobile Marketing Watch

You don't think RIM has made headway into the consumer market? All this doom and gloom for the #2 manufacturer. I guess people just listen to the iPwn hype and swallow every bit of it.

These people remind me of John Dvorak constantly predicting the demise of Apple, but for these guys it's RIM they want to see gone without a full understanding of the market as a whole. Short term stock price is meaningless, remember apple was below $90 12-18 months ago, at the height of their revenue growth, did they fail as a company? Yet we're the unrealistic ones?

[jd914]

I think it's more insecurity that causes these threads.

Call it what you may, industry professionals, critics, tech blogs and tech reviewers all have pretty much gave the Torch a thumbs down.

[xandermac]

And thats fine, Analists can call it whatever they like, but when RIM is still #2 for the quarter I don't think they'll shed any tears, I know I won't. RIM will always be around whether you like it or not but try not to worry too much.

Call it what you may, industry professionals, critics, tech blogs and tech reviewers all have pretty much gave the Torch a thumbs down.

[jd914]

And thats fine, Analists can call it whatever they like, but when RIM is still #2 for the quarter I don't think they'll shed any tears, I know I won't. RIM will always be around whether you like it or not but try not to worry too much.

Speculation on your end only time will tell. If the Torch is the best RIM can come out with in this day and age then they have an uphill battle to compete with the next generation devices. Just because they are number 2 today doesn't mean they are going to hold that place forever.

[xandermac]

Look, the only people that pay attention to these analists are people like you, 99% of the population have no idea what the reviewers say. They will of course listen the their prime time news show or CNN or Fox news in prime time banging on the iPhone 4, and how consumer reports won't recommend it, but they'll have no idea about the torch. It's hardly speculation, I just live outside your world. RIM will still be #2.

Speculation on your end only time will tell. If the Torch is the best RIM can come out with in this day and age then they have an uphill battle to compete with the next generation devices. Just because they are number 2 today doesn't mean they are going to hold that place forever.

[djransom]

Call it what you may, industry professionals, critics, tech blogs and tech reviewers all have pretty much gave the Torch a thumbs down.

Those same critics got on the iPhone about the entire antenna debacle and forced Apples hand in the situation. Everyone has an opinion and it's up to the consumer to take it as just that or fact.

[berrygoodphone1]

I guess we can all agree that RIM needs to spped up its technology to keep up with other non-blackberry consumers.

Blackberries are still awesome phones, whether we like it or not

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com