1. swcomputerdesign's Avatar
    Just got the priv camera update but still no manual mode. Does it only work with marshmallow? The pkb features work just no manual mode.

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    05-27-16 07:42 AM
  2. Brulging_Jersey's Avatar
    Only with Marshmallow.
    05-27-16 07:43 AM
  3. tango59's Avatar
    Got a question about the slow mo on the camera can you zoom in when using slow mo

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    05-27-16 10:52 AM
  4. smcv's Avatar
    the slow-mo sensor resolution is reduced by a quarter in both dimensions in order to get up to 120fps, so a zoom would just be cropping and upscaling, leading to really pixelated results. for this reason, we didn't enable zoom in that mode.
    Johnpetter, Lawmen23 and FF22 like this.
    05-27-16 01:29 PM
  5. anon(9304963)'s Avatar
    the slow-mo sensor resolution is reduced by a quarter in both dimensions in order to get up to 120fps, so a zoom would just be cropping and upscaling, leading to really pixelated results. for this reason, we didn't enable zoom in that mode.
    "We didn't enable" - You said "we" so I guess you are part of the team in charge of the camera at BlackBerry.

    If so, I also have a question regarding this (awesome) update and the new manual mode.

    4800 iso is huge for a smartphone!! The reflex Canon 500D is maxed up at 3200..

    My question :

    Is it a hardware issue that is the cause of the absence of this (awesome) manual mode in video mode ??

    Or is it simply a corporate decision to not make it a too-good-of-a-phone for us to use ?
    05-27-16 07:48 PM
  6. smcv's Avatar
    We prioritized photo controls first, and will be focusing on video improvements next.
    Manual controls in video are an interesting one, because you are hard limited to a minimum shutter speed based on the frame rate (eg. 1/30 or 1/60). I'm not entirely sure how the ISP will respond to changes in exposure time, but I look forward to finding out. I don't foresee gain (ISO) being a problem, and certainly manual focus and white balance should not be an issue.
    05-28-16 09:29 PM
  7. KuroKei's Avatar
    We prioritized photo controls first, and will be focusing on video improvements next.
    Manual controls in video are an interesting one, because you are hard limited to a minimum shutter speed based on the frame rate (eg. 1/30 or 1/60). I'm not entirely sure how the ISP will respond to changes in exposure time, but I look forward to finding out. I don't foresee gain (ISO) being a problem, and certainly manual focus and white balance should not be an issue.
    Awesome. Good to know video enhancements are coming!

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    Sigewif likes this.
    05-28-16 09:34 PM
  8. Uzi's Avatar
    Sean a friend asked me, is time shift coming ?
    05-28-16 09:35 PM
  9. smcv's Avatar
    Sean a friend asked me, is time shift coming ?
    No plans currently, primarily due to licensing.
    Uzi likes this.
    05-29-16 12:33 AM
  10. maxivn's Avatar
    the slow-mo sensor resolution is reduced by a quarter in both dimensions in order to get up to 120fps, so a zoom would just be cropping and upscaling, leading to really pixelated results. for this reason, we didn't enable zoom in that mode.
    Hi,
    When I use slow-mo mode, the video is really pixelated and see clearly the square of each pixel, how can I solve this issue? I have already cleared data to restart the camera from the beginning.

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    05-30-16 08:35 AM
  11. WT44's Avatar
    No plans currently, primarily due to licensing.
    How about Hybrid auto mode? I think it's awesome how a simple point & shoot camera like the Canon s120 incorporated it. Is this something which could technically be done? And is there interest within the cam team to take a gander if could be incorporated for the Priv?

    It shoots 4 secs prior to taking a full resolution photo and then combines all the mini vids to one big movie at the end of a day. So at the end of the day, you'll have photos and a video, hence hybrid. Only thing which is annoying is the fact that when you play the movie that you hear a fake shutter sound every 4 seconds (which Idea I would advise to throw in the garbage compactor).
    (Canon, Feb 2013).
    Apple called it "innovation" when they introduced it as "live photos" and released that function with their latest iPhone 6s, yet it's an old technology and I already used it a couple of years ago with one of my entry level point & shoot camera. But of course, once Apple "introduces" stuff, it's called innovation and the whole world is in shock and awe.
    Last edited by WT44; 05-30-16 at 02:46 PM.
    smcv and Lawmen23 like this.
    05-30-16 01:19 PM
  12. smcv's Avatar
    Hi,
    When I use slow-mo mode, the video is really pixelated and see clearly the square of each pixel, how can I solve this issue? I have already cleared data to restart the camera from the beginning.
    This is typical of high-speed recording modes on modern hardware due to the fact that pixel-binning needs to be used to increase the frame rates, so there is no "fix" for this. Priv's camera sensor in 4x binning mode will output right around 1280x720 resolution, but due to the spatial subsampling inherent to pixel-binning on a bayer-masked camera sensor, pixelation artifacts can appear in areas of high contrast (like edges).
    gizmo21, FF22 and fathroen like this.
    05-30-16 02:15 PM
  13. gizmo21's Avatar
    Didn't know anything about timeshift photos but if you ever even think about it get the deleting of unwanted photos of a session integrated, or you will have as many questions about here as I've seen on Sony forums complaining about cluttering the memory with unwanted trash
    05-30-16 03:58 PM
  14. FF22's Avatar
    This is typical of high-speed recording modes on modern hardware due to the fact that pixel-binning needs to be used to increase the frame rates, so there is no "fix" for this. Priv's camera sensor in 4x binning mode will output right around 1280x720 resolution, but due to the spatial subsampling inherent to pixel-binning on a bayer-masked camera sensor, pixelation artifacts can appear in areas of high contrast (like edges).
    I like it. I don't understand more than a word or two but still like it.
    Lawmen23 and fathroen like this.
    05-30-16 05:15 PM
  15. guygardner73's Avatar
    the slow-mo sensor resolution is reduced by a quarter in both dimensions in order to get up to 120fps, so a zoom would just be cropping and upscaling, leading to really pixelated results. for this reason, we didn't enable zoom in that mode.
    Hi, thanks for taking the time to participate. A really cool upgrade to the camera would be a QR reader mode. We have to mess around with 3rd party apps for this currently don't we?

    PassportSQW100-1/10.3.2.2876
    05-30-16 07:39 PM
  16. smcv's Avatar
    Hi, thanks for taking the time to participate. A really cool upgrade to the camera would be a QR reader mode. We have to mess around with 3rd party apps for this currently don't we?
    Oh, I'm a huge advocate of this feature!
    misterabrasive and fathroen like this.
    05-30-16 08:34 PM
  17. guizmox's Avatar
    About pixel-binning : you mean that the hardware bandwidth is unable to process all the pixels the sensor have in high shutter speeds (which would make sense)
    Is it why manual settings can't go further than 1/1000 shutter speed ? I remember the Passport being able to capture a 1/5000 frame (with 3rd party Camera++ software)

    About slow shutter speeds (I mean, 1s, 2s...) we can't reach those speeds because the sensor would generate much more noise (pixels density) ?

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    Last edited by guizmox; 05-31-16 at 02:35 AM.
    05-31-16 02:08 AM
  18. guizmox's Avatar
    My thoughts about high noise in low shutter speeds are probably right.
    I tried to capture the exact same photo in two versions :

    LEFT : ISO 200 - 1/60
    RIGHT : ISO 200 - 1/30

    (just lowered the brightness of the 1/30 picture to match the 1/60 one)

    When zooming on details, it seems clear that lower speeds (1/30) generates a lot more noise, probably because of the pixel density : I mean, when opening the sensor with a long exposure time, the pixels are so close to each others that they "interferate"... Someone can confirm ?

    Camera upgrade question-130160c.png
    Camera upgrade question-130160a.png
    Attached Thumbnails Camera upgrade question-130160b.png  
    gizmo21 likes this.
    05-31-16 06:38 AM
  19. gizmo21's Avatar
    ^ That's what an oilpainting is all about
    05-31-16 08:59 AM
  20. smcv's Avatar
    Lower exposure time will not lead to more noise.. only ISO (gain) will do that. You adjustment of brightness will be what is introducing the noise (you are reducing the bit depth)
    I would suggest trying the ISO priority setting in order to see what the difference between ISO 100 and ISO 200 looks like, for example.
    05-31-16 02:07 PM
  21. smcv's Avatar
    About pixel-binning : you mean that the hardware bandwidth is unable to process all the pixels the sensor have in high shutter speeds (which would make sense)
    Is it why manual settings can't go further than 1/1000 shutter speed ? I remember the Passport being able to capture a 1/5000 frame (with 3rd party Camera++ software)

    About slow shutter speeds (I mean, 1s, 2s...) we can't reach those speeds because the sensor would generate much more noise (pixels density) ?
    Not quite. The limitations I am talking about are with respect to framerate, which is different from shutter speed.. eg. you can run the camera at 30 fps, but not necessarily run the shutter at 1/30 -- it could run at 1/1000 or whatever.
    The camera sensor is sitting on a bus that has a maximum bandwidth of something like 430 megapixels per second. So at 16:9 resolution, 30fps, you are pushing about 405 MP/s. To get to 60fps, you can see that this would exceed the bus limits. In order to move 60fps worth of pixels over the bus, the sensor is put into what is known as "binning" mode. In this mode, on-sensor, neighbouring 4 pixels of the same colour are summed into a single pixel. This effectively reduces the per-frame pixel load to 3.4MP, which winds up leading to a bus rate of 60x3.4=204MP/s. Since you are running at a max 1/60 exposure time, the benefits of binning are also that you get 2 stops improvement in exposure due to the fact that 4 pixels are summed.
    Now, to get up to 120fps, the binning has to reach out and collect even more pixels, which is why the effective resolution drops to around 720x1280.
    To compound the problem, binning is not exactly the same as scaling, since there are "holes" in between pixels of each colour. For example, red and blue pixels have no immediate left/right/top/bottom neighbours, and so there is missing information. when edges pass through those holes. In 4x4 binning mode it gets worse.
    You can see here for some illustrations:
    Analysis and processing of pixel binning for color image sensor | EURASIP Journal on Advances in Signal Processing | Full Text

    If you are seeing manual shutter speed limited to 1/1000, that is due to a bug in the chipset code which rounded off exposure time to an integer instead of a floating point value. On devices with the latest platform software, this extends up to 1/8000. There is no processing limitation regarding shutter speed, and in fact, the device supports all the way up to 1/80000 or so!! It was just deemed unnecessary to have the scale go that far.

    As for the 1/2 second limit in the other direction, the absolute limit is actually around 625ms, but again for visual reasons we capped out at 500ms. This limitation is imposed by the chipset vendor, and I'm not entirely sure why, to be honest. I imagine there is a counter in the ISP that just doesn't go high enough to count "pixel lines" fast enough. I have not investigated this limit much, frankly, as multiple-exposures are a better way to deal with long exposures typically (since blur is more easily removed due to the discrete frames).
    Lawmen23, guizmox, gizmo21 and 1 others like this.
    05-31-16 02:20 PM
  22. maxivn's Avatar
    Not quite. The limitations I am talking about are with respect to framerate, which is different from shutter speed.. eg. you can run the camera at 30 fps, but not necessarily run the shutter at 1/30 -- it could run at 1/1000 or whatever.
    The camera sensor is sitting on a bus that has a maximum bandwidth of something like 430 megapixels per second. So at 16:9 resolution, 30fps, you are pushing about 405 MP/s. To get to 60fps, you can see that this would exceed the bus limits. In order to move 60fps worth of pixels over the bus, the sensor is put into what is known as "binning" mode. In this mode, on-sensor, neighbouring 4 pixels of the same colour are summed into a single pixel. This effectively reduces the per-frame pixel load to 3.4MP, which winds up leading to a bus rate of 60x3.4=204MP/s. Since you are running at a max 1/60 exposure time, the benefits of binning are also that you get 2 stops improvement in exposure due to the fact that 4 pixels are summed.
    Now, to get up to 120fps, the binning has to reach out and collect even more pixels, which is why the effective resolution drops to around 720x1280.
    To compound the problem, binning is not exactly the same as scaling, since there are "holes" in between pixels of each colour. For example, red and blue pixels have no immediate left/right/top/bottom neighbours, and so there is missing information. when edges pass through those holes. In 4x4 binning mode it gets worse.
    You can see here for some illustrations:
    Analysis and processing of pixel binning for color image sensor | EURASIP Journal on Advances in Signal Processing | Full Text

    If you are seeing manual shutter speed limited to 1/1000, that is due to a bug in the chipset code which rounded off exposure time to an integer instead of a floating point value. On devices with the latest platform software, this extends up to 1/8000. There is no processing limitation regarding shutter speed, and in fact, the device supports all the way up to 1/80000 or so!! It was just deemed unnecessary to have the scale go that far.

    As for the 1/2 second limit in the other direction, the absolute limit is actually around 625ms, but again for visual reasons we capped out at 500ms. This limitation is imposed by the chipset vendor, and I'm not entirely sure why, to be honest. I imagine there is a counter in the ISP that just doesn't go high enough to count "pixel lines" fast enough. I have not investigated this limit much, frankly, as multiple-exposures are a better way to deal with long exposures typically (since blur is more easily removed due to the discrete frames).
    Hi,

    From your description, I understand that your team apply Pixel binning to Slow-mo mode. Do you have an intention to apply this technique to create a oversampling mode or night mode for photo? That would create better photo in lower resolutions.

    Thanks
    05-31-16 10:07 PM
  23. gizmo21's Avatar
    Not quite. The limitations I am talking about are with respect to framerate, which is different from shutter speed.. eg. you can run the camera at 30 fps, but not necessarily run the shutter at 1/30 -- it could run at 1/1000 or whatever.
    The camera sensor is sitting on a bus that has a maximum bandwidth of something like 430 megapixels per second. So at 16:9 resolution, 30fps, you are pushing about 405 MP/s. To get to 60fps, you can see that this would exceed the bus limits. In order to move 60fps worth of pixels over the bus, the sensor is put into what is known as "binning" mode. In this mode, on-sensor, neighbouring 4 pixels of the same colour are summed into a single pixel. This effectively reduces the per-frame pixel load to 3.4MP, which winds up leading to a bus rate of 60x3.4=204MP/s. Since you are running at a max 1/60 exposure time, the benefits of binning are also that you get 2 stops improvement in exposure due to the fact that 4 pixels are summed.
    Now, to get up to 120fps, the binning has to reach out and collect even more pixels, which is why the effective resolution drops to around 720x1280.
    To compound the problem, binning is not exactly the same as scaling, since there are "holes" in between pixels of each colour. For example, red and blue pixels have no immediate left/right/top/bottom neighbours, and so there is missing information. when edges pass through those holes. In 4x4 binning mode it gets worse.
    You can see here for some illustrations:
    Analysis and processing of pixel binning for color image sensor | EURASIP Journal on Advances in Signal Processing | Full Text

    If you are seeing manual shutter speed limited to 1/1000, that is due to a bug in the chipset code which rounded off exposure time to an integer instead of a floating point value. On devices with the latest platform software, this extends up to 1/8000. There is no processing limitation regarding shutter speed, and in fact, the device supports all the way up to 1/80000 or so!! It was just deemed unnecessary to have the scale go that far.

    As for the 1/2 second limit in the other direction, the absolute limit is actually around 625ms, but again for visual reasons we capped out at 500ms. This limitation is imposed by the chipset vendor, and I'm not entirely sure why, to be honest. I imagine there is a counter in the ISP that just doesn't go high enough to count "pixel lines" fast enough. I have not investigated this limit much, frankly, as multiple-exposures are a better way to deal with long exposures typically (since blur is more easily removed due to the discrete frames).
    I can only hope you CTRL+C/CTRL+V that to your internal wiki to teach your freshman staff, so this is not only written for us ignorant forum lurkers

    Thanks for taking the time and give us a lesson in CMOS-chip hardware limitation and software functions to fix it.
    Lawmen23 likes this.
    06-01-16 12:01 AM
  24. guizmox's Avatar
    Woow ! Thank you smvc for sharing your detailed expertise !
    I was not thinking that lowering the brightness would generate some noise. I did not tried to change the ISO because I'm aware of noise that high values causes (ISO 50 rules !)
    And of course for video mode I meant the framerate

    Anyway, I have to congratulate your team for having one of the best user-interface for manual settings. It's easy, smart & fast to use them !

    I have another question : does the phone camera sensors outputs unuseable pictures without heavy post-processing ?
    smcv likes this.
    06-01-16 01:47 AM
  25. Uzi's Avatar
    Way above my head lol , I just use the auto mode
    06-01-16 02:09 AM
35 12

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