[dfb8085]

I am convinced if what they showed at orlando comes to pass. I love the blackberry brand and my 9800 and playbook is awesome to hard to beat so I will be with BB till the end. I can't wait for BB 10 and I will be in line the first day. Between it and the playbook I can't see any better combo out there. I still need my bridge and I hope it is carried over to BB 10

[jwn66]

Dunno, will wait till I see an actual product, not a half baked prototype for devs to check out to see whats what..

[kennyliu]

Kennyliu!!! The Almighty! Seen it all.. Heard it all.. Have it all? The Dev Alpha, like it's name suggests, is for testing Applications. Period. .. ........... The demo flow, connectivity, camera, apps, etc. were not a 'mock-up' but rather a small demo of the final product

That's the point. There is no final product or anything even close to a final product. What you were shown is just rough ideas at this stage. Otherwise, why wouldn't they have these features on their Alpha test phone? I believe app developers would benefit from working with an OS build that at least resembles the final product? No?

Resolution, I may request RIM not to outsmart the best and leave it at what is comfortable.. The res on Dev Alpha is high, but I'm expecting it to lower.

I actually hope that they will stick to the Alpha unit's resolution and screen size. So far it looks great. Lower resolution/screen size is a major pain in the neck while web browsing.

Ofcourse the BB is worth a lot more than what it sells for...

Of course, it is to some people. The same way other brands/devices are to other people. Market prices are a good indicator of what a product is worth to consumers. And we know that the PB just didn't sell at high prices.

RIM already is ahead in multi-platform compatibility, maybe not specifically with apps. We have a thread on how Apple refuses to accept BB BT connection. Skype is really old school now, Screen sharing and video chat are expected to be native to BB device. We can hope to have BB and PB integrated with video calls and sharing. This would really expand the base.

The keyword is multi-platform. Screen sharing and video chat on BB10 devices won't make it multi-platform. Unless RIM produces something akin to Skype, Google Talk, Live Messenger, etc, that can be used on PCs, MACs, Androids, iOS, Linux, etc. Even if RIM comes up with their own solution, the chances it will be successful is close to zero and the answer is "network effects".

TomTom is partnered with RIM now so we can expect some rapid developments on this..

RIM is partnered with Microsoft, but MS didn't develop pretty much anything besides the maps app. Docs2Go is owned by RIM, but the PBOS version of the office suite is the worst among all other OSs. RIM is a partner of Adobe, but the PBOS version of the PDF Reader is just horrendous.

In other words, RIM being a partner of some other company doesn't guarantee anything. We'll probably see a version of BlackBerry Maps though.

You have to get used to the new platform. I leave my apps in minimized state (bottom to up bezel gesture) for days.. It's more of a mental thing to have everything shut..

No. You are wrong. It's not just a mental thing to have apps minimized. Minimized GUI window taxes your hardware resources (specifically RAM and GPU/CPU, and hence affects battery life) much much more than a background service. Besides, with background services you get notifications and you don't get automatically logged out from, let's say, a website based app.

[Superfly_FR]

[...] - The price. [...]

I sincerely hope it'll be as expensive (or more) than the other brands flagships.
Being cheap for a premium device is just a way to save the ship, in no case first BB10 phone should hit the market under the price of - say - actual 9900 or iPhone 4S, this would be marketing suicide.
Of course, I'm writing about the FIRST BB10 phone. Then, as usual, RIM must offer mid and low (won't be BB10) pricing devices.

[kdna]

I am convinced!

[kennyliu]

I sincerely hope it'll be as expensive (or more) than the other brands flagships.
Being cheap for a premium device is just a way to save the ship, in no case first BB10 phone should hit the market under the price of - say - actual 9900 or iPhone 4S, this would be marketing suicide.
Of course, I'm writing about the FIRST BB10 phone. Then, as usual, RIM must offer mid and low (won't be BB10) pricing devices.

You may be right that the initial price may set the bar. But if they make BB10 phones as expensive as flagship phones by other manufacturers, you'll get the same situation as we had with the PB. BB10 phones will become a niche phone. That will effectively kill RIM.

What, I think they want and should do, is to penetrate the market with low price/value in order to gain the market share and bring the platform to the critical mass where it is popular enough for people to buy and developers to develop.

A good solution is to segment the market right at the release point. That is, release a premium line and a more affordable line of handsets.

[Superfly_FR]

That is, release a premium line and a more affordable line of handsets.

I meant only first "flagship 9900 like" release. PB was a - bad - industrial accident at launch; not because of its price, but its overall deceptive OS experience. BB10 must hit the market far more polished than PB OS 1.x was. A small price could lead into a "well, it's not yet totally perfect, but ..." perception and it is the worst scenario IMHO.
Then, about the line, you're right with some logical restrictions, as BB10 requires specs that won't match with "cheap" devices.

[kennyliu]

I meant only first "flagship 9900 like" release. PB was a - bad - industrial accident at launch; not because of its price, but its overall deceptive OS experience. BB10 must hit the market far more polished than PB OS 1.x was. A small price could lead into a "well, it's not yet totally perfect, but ..." perception and it is the worst scenario IMHO.
Then, about the line, you're right with some logical restrictions, as BB10 requires specs that won't match with "cheap" devices.

No, the lack of basic features in PB OS 1 wasn't the only factor. It was also the lack of an ecosystem and developer support. So, however polished BB10 is going to be, it would be silly for RIM to charge a premium price for a device with poor ecosystem.

They can, but that, again, will make BB10 a niche product with poor sales. And, there the vicious cycle begins: poor sales -> poor developer support -> poor sales, etc.

Bottomline: RIM's goal now should not be making high margins on hardware by making premium handsets with premium prices, but rather for the platform (BB10) to gain as much momentum as possible.

[joshua_sx1]

Am I convinced? If RIM taught me one thing with my PlayBook, that would be "early bird, yes, catches early worms but that doesn't meant it is the best worm of the day"... good things really comes to those who patiently wait... and observed...

[varunsain]

That's the point. There is no final product or anything even close to a final product. What you were shown is just rough ideas at this stage. Otherwise, why wouldn't they have these features on their Alpha test phone? I believe app developers would benefit from working with an OS build that at least resembles the final product? No?

I don't think they were ideas! They were glimpses of the actual OS! You can't expect them to release their new BB10 OS to developers.. It's as good as launching the product?!?!

I actually hope that they will stick to the Alpha unit's resolution and screen size. So far it looks great. Lower resolution/screen size is a major pain in the neck while web browsing.

But higher resolution also consumes more battery.. Major pain in the neck is exaggerating.. Ya I don't mind Dev Alpha resolution but I wouldn't mind it being lower. The battery life and less taxing on processor has higher advantages..

The keyword is multi-platform. Screen sharing and video chat on BB10 devices won't make it multi-platform. Unless RIM produces something akin to Skype, Google Talk, Live Messenger, etc, that can be used on PCs, MACs, Androids, iOS, Linux, etc. Even if RIM comes up with their own solution, the chances it will be successful is close to zero and the answer is "network effects".

Ofcourse RIM is working on all other programs that already exist on the OS7 platform which are Multi-platform.. WLM, Gtalk, Twitter, FB, Evernote, many more i guess.. It's just a matter of being converted into high-end apps suited for cascades, etc. Just because it's not there on the PlayBook doesn't mean it's not gonna be on BB10.. and RIM is the only one with WLM, Gtalk, Twitter, FB, and stuff like that which are Apps by RIM itself.. So that's the reason to expand with Cascades so that all these can now be upgraded internally without waiting on MS or anyone else to take notice..

RIM is partnered with Microsoft, but MS didn't develop pretty much anything besides the maps app. Docs2Go is owned by RIM, but the PBOS version of the office suite is the worst among all other OSs. RIM is a partner of Adobe, but the PBOS version of the PDF Reader is just horrendous.

Wow,, You make it sound as though these companies are small time App developers and that's the only work they have in hand? MS is currently working on Win8.. Win tab.. and Win mobile.. They have partnered with RIM ofcourse but not obliged to deliver stuff right now! They are first working on their own developments.. Bing is slowly taking over Google search.. Bing maps is being heavily developed.. Windows Live will be taken forward.. Skype HTML5 is being developed.. Slowly when everything is developed.. It will be integrated once it's ready.. Till then you can enjoy the shady Google services..

I have a feeling you think that companies walk around with these in their pockets but just lazy to put their hands in?

I was not aware Docs2Go is owned by RIM.. I thought it's 3rd Party for which RIM is paying to get it free for you?!?!? iOS Docs2Go costs 10$ vs. Free version in PB and BB.. what kind of a comparison is this?

RIM and Adobe are working on AIR.. They are working on Flash.. and all this BlackBerry - Research In Motion and Adobe Systems Alliance .. Right.. Let's dedicate our entire network to develop Adobe Reader for the PB and everything else can take a break.. Adobe just launched Creative Suite 6 btw.. Guess they should have stopped that for the PB Adobe Reader.. Afterall it just takes a few hours to get Adobe reader right?

Why don't you buy a 3rd party PDF app? Clearly the gazillion iPad users don't seem to have a problem doing that..

So you want everything free and native but not really support anything the company is doing? You compare Android and iOS but what is it that you get native.. a new android or iOS device are just totally empty when you purchase them.. They have absolutely nothing on it.. Okay let's go shopping first to the App Store.. wait no credit card.. how embarrassing.

In other words, RIM being a partner of some other company doesn't guarantee anything. We'll probably see a version of BlackBerry Maps though.

You are being very short sighted on this topic. If you don't see any progress with RIM partnerships.. I can't say much here.. TomTom is going HD with their maps.. and they are already Global in their reach.. They are far better than Google maps.. But very close to Nokia maps.

No. You are wrong. It's not just a mental thing to have apps minimized. Minimized GUI window taxes your hardware resources (specifically RAM and GPU/CPU, and hence affects battery life) much much more than a background service. Besides, with background services you get notifications and you don't get automatically logged out from, let's say, a website based app.

You do know that processes have gone advanced these days and can be settled in 'idle' state when not actively used? GPU/CPU.. What kind of a background process are you considering that will save you all the RAM, GPU/CPU usage? It's not like you're gonna run a game as a background service.. or some video editing software?

And just because an app is put in the background.. it doesn't mean it utilizes any less memory.. It needs to be idle to utilize less memory.. background or foreground.. and honestly.. I think you are talking about saving 80-100mb of RAM space.. I don't intend to take my RAM home when I have 1000mb of it.. Like I said it's just a mental thing to see that you have 500 mb of RAM 'free'.. I can run apshalt, nfs, facebook, browser (might crash at times), camera, hdmi, messages all at the same time with 1gb ram.. With minimized GUI.. I don't care about RAM till it starts quitting on me (which it doesn't) I don't care about battery till it starts dying on me (which it doesn't) .. and I honestly don't want things to go in the background.. because in short your suggesting to introduce a task manager.. which I realllly realllly don't want..

And lastly save password if you don't want to be logged out.. or request the app developer to sort the issue.. I wonder if RIM has taken the onus to sort everything out?

[varunsain]

No, the lack of basic features in PB OS 1 wasn't the only factor. It was also the lack of an ecosystem and developer support. So, however polished BB10 is going to be, it would be silly for RIM to charge a premium price for a device with poor ecosystem.

They can, but that, again, will make BB10 a niche product with poor sales. And, there the vicious cycle begins: poor sales -> poor developer support -> poor sales, etc.

Bottomline: RIM's goal now should not be making high margins on hardware by making premium handsets with premium prices, but rather for the platform (BB10) to gain as much momentum as possible.

Great how you completely forgot that OS7 devices will coexist with BB10 devices. BB10 is obviously a premium segment for BlackBerry.

And what about Software and Acquisitions? Don't they cost any money? How do you expect them to recover that cost which has been added to BB10 development?

[jivegirl14]

I can't respond to your multi-post post so.... I need an actual product or as near as to decide. There's not a lot that has convinced me thus far. Developer specs that can change at any time really are no good to me. My response stands. And then I agree with most of KennyLiu's responses.

[kennyliu]

I don't think they were ideas! They were glimpses of the actual OS! You can't expect them to release their new BB10 OS to developers.. It's as good as launching the product?!?!

Why can't I? Other companies do exactly that.

Again, all you were shown were most probably just mock ups. If this was not the case, I see no reason why the app flow feature and homescreen window tiles were not released to developers. Those UI elements are probably important in developing. I am not talking about the Scalado video. It's not even implemented yet.

But higher resolution also consumes more battery.. Major pain in the neck is exaggerating.. Ya I don't mind Dev Alpha resolution but I wouldn't mind it being lower. The battery life and less taxing on processor has higher advantages..

You know what resolution most websites are written for? As for screen resolution affecting battery life and CPU, you probably are not aware that most newer high-end phones have res of at least 720p. And those phones do OK in terms of battery life and run just OK (better than most BB phones with mediocre resolution) on the current generation of CPUs (with the newer 28-32nm SoCs 720P resolution shouldn't be any problem at all).

Ofcourse RIM is working on all other programs that already exist on the OS7 platform which are Multi-platform.. WLM, Gtalk, Twitter, FB, Evernote, many more i guess.. It's just a matter of being converted into high-end apps suited for cascades, etc. Just because it's not there on the PlayBook doesn't mean it's not gonna be on BB10.. and RIM is the only one with WLM, Gtalk, Twitter, FB, and stuff like that which are Apps by RIM itself.. So that's the reason to expand with Cascades so that all these can now be upgraded internally without waiting on MS or anyone else to take notice..

Oh, I see. RIM will simply develop a Skype app without even asking them. I wonder why they haven't done so yet???

Wow,, You make it sound as though these companies are small time App developers and that's the only work they have in hand? .... I have a feeling you think that companies walk around with these in their pockets but just lazy to put their hands in?
....

Right.. Let's dedicate our entire network to develop Adobe Reader for the PB and everything else can take a break.. Adobe just launched Creative Suite 6 btw.. Guess they should have stopped that for the PB Adobe Reader.. Afterall it just takes a few hours to get Adobe reader right?

Do you mean they are big and have adequate resources to work concurrently on many projects

But you got it wrong. Those companies are busy developing all they have for their other partners (for your own enrichment, just take a look at what those companies are doing for other platforms before you make up another excuse that they are too busy).

I was not aware Docs2Go is owned by RIM.. I thought it's 3rd Party for which RIM is paying to get it free for you?!?!? iOS Docs2Go costs 10$ vs. Free version in PB and BB.. what kind of a comparison is this?

http://crackberry.com/dataviz-makers...esearch-motion

My suggestion is, when in doubt, at least use Google search.

So you want everything free and native but not really support anything the company is doing? You compare Android and iOS but what is it that you get native.. a new android or iOS device are just totally empty when you purchase them.. They have absolutely nothing on it.. Okay let's go shopping first to the App Store.. wait no credit card.. how embarrassing.

I have an impression that you never laid your hands on anything that's not BB. My Android phone came with a bigger selection of apps (two better office suites, two GPS map/navigation apps, tons of games (that are paid), and tons of other stuff preinstalled). Go, educate yourself. It only takes one trip to a local electronics store.

You are being very short sighted on this topic. If you don't see any progress with RIM partnerships.. I can't say much here.. TomTom is going HD with their maps.. and they are already Global in their reach.. They are far better than Google maps.. But very close to Nokia maps.

We'll talk when we see the actual app, OK? So far, as history suggests, partnerships do not guarantee anything.

You do know that processes have gone advanced these days and can be settled in 'idle' state when not actively used? GPU/CPU.. What kind of a background process are you considering that will save you all the RAM, GPU/CPU usage? It's not like you're gonna run a game as a background service.. or some video editing software?

And just because an app is put in the background.. it doesn't mean it utilizes any less memory.. It needs to be idle to utilize less memory.. background or foreground.. and honestly.. I think you are talking about saving 80-100mb of RAM space.. I don't intend to take my RAM home when I have 1000mb of it.. Like I said it's just a mental thing to see that you have 500 mb of RAM 'free'.. I can run apshalt, nfs, facebook, browser (might crash at times), camera, hdmi, messages all at the same time with 1gb ram.. With minimized GUI.. I don't care about RAM till it starts quitting on me (which it doesn't) I don't care about battery till it starts dying on me (which it doesn't)

Naah, 100MB (per app, I suppose) is nothing when you have 350-400 MB free

Besides, you neglected the most important thing. The battery life. Open a few background apps and see what your power consumption is vs without that GUI window being in the background. Of course, you personally (and a few other people here) don't care about battery life, but most other people do.

and I honestly don't want things to go in the background.. because in short your suggesting to introduce a task manager.. which I realllly realllly don't want..

Go read what background services are. I don't know what you mean you need a task manager. I don't need one on my Android phone and it does background services beautifully.

And you can always opt for having something in the background.

And lastly save password if you don't want to be logged out.. or request the app developer to sort the issue.. I wonder if RIM has taken the onus to sort everything out?

No, but it looks like other platforms has taken that onus