[Drael646464]

At the pricepoint, the no-brainer market is the already existing business consumer base. Regular consumers may not buy, but businesses - yeah they might do that given its no more expensive than a less productive iPhone.

But what would really seal the deal is a partnership with Microsoft like they are doing with Samsung and the s8 (the s8 Microsoft edition).

Bundled office 365, Cortana, Wunderlist, Onedrive, Outlook etc. If there was a Microsoft edition of the KeyONE, then we might have a solid offer for enterprise. Then they might get a carrier. And then they might have a proper niche hit.

Microsoft and Blackberry are both aiming for this niche space. They have both failed in the past to gain it properly. They would be natural allies.

Honestly I think a phone with a physical keyboard, blackberry security, BBM and hub, total app range of android, and bundled Microsoft suite, would quite excite the business community.

[bluetroll]

Can't you just download the apps yourself?

[Bla1ze]

Can't you just download the apps yourself?

Yep.

[spantch101]

Can't you just download the apps yourself?

Sure. But you could do that with any device, if Microsoft could use their brand to help push BlackBerry devices running their software I'm sure it couldn't hurt

[Drael646464]

Assuming Cortana is compatible software wise, yes you could download and subscribe yourself (the office package).

As you could with the Samsung s8 Microsoft edition.

That's not really the point though, in terms of business. Businesses prefer pre-packaged arrangements. They want devices they don't have to customize, and they want full service arrangements.

And then there's the whole branding/marketing thing, which BB often fails at. Bringing the two names together blackberry and Microsoft, would have a certain clout.

[Bla1ze]

Sure. But you could do that with any device, if Microsoft could use their brand to help push BlackBerry devices running their software I'm sure it couldn't hurt

The only reason MS is 'helping' Samsung is..

1) They've been partners for a while.
2) Samsung's DeX uses MS stuff

Samsung 'DeX' is Continuum for the Galaxy S8 — with support from Microsoft | Windows Central

[Drael646464]

Jinx :P

[BigBadWulf]

Personally, I try to avoid bloatware, and choose my own apps.

[Bla1ze]

Personally, I try to avoid bloatware, and choose my own apps.

Right, I don't even use any MS apps. But, that said, plenty of people do I guess.

[spantch101]

The only reason MS is 'helping' Samsung is..

1) They've been partners for a while.
2) Samsung's DeX uses MS stuff

Samsung 'DeX' is Continuum for the Galaxy S8 — with support from Microsoft | Windows Central

Everyone knows MS helps itself first. Anyone else to benefit is pure coincidence hahaha. Right place and right time.

[Drael646464]

Samsung and Microsoft are deeper partners that most realize. They co-own and co-developed the patent for the graphene OLED screen. Samsung has been open for awhile that it doesn't wish to rely on android. I think both Samsung and Microsoft want to collaborate to push out apple. Something the graphene screen tech could do. Samsung basically is hedging its bets.

Whereas Microsoft is looking for allies to regain some lost dominance.

Microsoft is generally quite friendly and looking for partners. They worked with google over network streaming compatibility. They came to a deal over some of blackberries security protocols.

They don't play apple and act all anti-competitive. Or at least general speaking they are one of the tech companies most likely to play friendly.

More power in unity. Common sense unless you are king of tech.

[Drael646464]

You can't do that with bb10, or the blackberry android devices, they both come prepackaged with a whole host of things. In fact, that's part of why people buy them (ie, hub, BBM, security etc)

But regardless that's not the point I was making. There would still be a regular keyONE.

Consumers are not going to be a big market for the keyONE at this pricepoint.

The difference being only software, its inexpensive to create a Microsoft edition like the s8, for enterprise. Which are the obvious bigger market for the device.

[spantch101]

Personally, I try to avoid bloatware, and choose my own apps.

Of course, so do most consumers, but enterprise likes to have pre configured devices ready for roll out to employees. Little to no setup needed . Having preinstalled MS software doesn't really benefit the masses. But a lot of people interested in the KEYone might like this arrangement

[BigBadWulf]

Of course, so do most consumers, but enterprise likes to have pre configured devices ready for roll out to employees. Little to no setup needed . Having preinstalled MS software doesn't really benefit the masses. But a lot of people interested in the KEYone might like this arrangement

Enterprise customers use a diverse variety of apps, and don't need them preinstalled by the manufacture.

Secure Android Solution – BlackBerry and Android for Work - United States

https://developer.android.com/distri...play/work.html

https://support.google.com/a/answer/2494992?hl=en

[Drael646464]

So why is Samsung doing a Microsoft edition then?

Having phones fully intergrated with the same software your desktop is using makes perfect sense to me. Most desktops are windows. Most offices use office. Microsoft dominates the business world.

Its not really all that diverse. Lots of businesses use their own software, but most businesses use Microsoft software.

[BigBadWulf]

So why is Samsung doing a Microsoft edition then?

Because, and because Samsung can afford to put out a special edition.

[Drael646464]

Price:

It's software. It's already written software.

A tiny bit of dev maybe, making sure the ship flies smoothly, ongoing (after all that's the main selling point to businesses, the tied service contract - your hardware, android fork, drivers should be maintained for high software compatibility).

But its not like releasing a separate hardware phone, or a highly different android platform.

And given Microsoft might also benefit (its an everyone wins scenario if such a phone took off), they'd probably pitch in to the effort.

Microsofts ARM emu when its comes out runs win32 software. They are probably going to want a keyboard phone to run that on at some point too. After all win32 software isn't often optimised for touch. So they have not just a potential smartphone market foothold to gain, but a partner who provides the most respected name in keyboards (a feature that makes a lot more difference running win32 programs)

Reasons:

Samsung having a partnership with Microsoft does not financially justify for either party making a joint venture phone - any such product must have a market, and an odds of success (which is obvious from the fact that 90% of businesses use Microsoft software, and 98% use Microsoft operating systems)

There's a clear benefit to business beyond the sheer marketing power of combining two recognised names - the all important service contract.

If you have a phone running say, outlook, and outlook doesn't work the phone maker says "software companies problem", even if its their drivers, android fork, or hardware that's producing the conflict. If its bundled software, that's no longer the case.

There's very little more important to businesses than service contracts.

Its a space both blackberry and Microsoft have failed to enter as well as they would both like. Its a space that is the keyONEs only hope of real profit given the pricetag and spec. If the keyONE fails, it could easily be the last blackberry phone.

If I were blackberry I would be concerned about how that goes. Trying harder to reach markets that might actually buy it.

I mean if they don't get at least one carrier, this phone will never be in stores. So far as I can see, this is the only hope they have of getting the momentum to actually get a carrier.

But meh, if blackberry TCL phones fail, I guess its not the end of the world.

I like blackberry. Hard keys rock too. Hub is nice. But if BB TCL phone fails, as all their previous attempts at carving out a niche have, someone will buy their keyboard patents, at least for use as an adapter. It's only a phone.

[mad_mdx]

I would not mind a Microsoft edition, it would add another reliable sales channel : the Microsoft store. That would be a good step up from shopbb

[Drael646464]

Well there's a good point. Even without a carrier, it would be a point of sale that might have _some_ shot at making the phone a success.

[CNX66]

Enterprise customers use a diverse variety of apps, and don't need them preinstalled by the manufacture.

Secure Android Solution – BlackBerry and Android for Work - United States

https://developer.android.com/distri...play/work.html

https://support.google.com/a/answer/2494992?hl=en

Exactly Enterprises use MDM or EMM to push their applications or application environments to their device groups.

[Drael646464]

I'm not sure what the point is here, actually.

You could use distribution software to roll out the HUB and BBM if you wanted. People "don't just install bb hub" because if they want BB hub, it makes more sense to buy a BB phone, with apps installed. Same with android device and the google suite.

Such devices are properly supported.

No business wants to run unsupported hardware with their software, or to have holes in their service contracts. Which is almost certainly the case if we are talking some niche BB phone like the KEYone.

[Drael646464]

Think about it from this point of view.

You are a regular business running some niche windows or Linux software, and the normal Microsoft suite. Maybe a database or two.

You are considering buying blackberry keyones for their security.

1) You have no guarantee blackberry will even keep making software updates, the company is so up to its eyeballs with problems

2) There is no service guarantee if the devices fail to run Microsoft software properly, only if it fails to run core google suite software, which for the most part is likely irrelevant to your business unless your in SEO. I know there's a little gmail and gdrive action, but generally speaking google apps are not core enterprise apps.

3) There are no carriers. There are no network guarantees, because the hardware isn't supported by any carrier.

If things go south, you are probably just up the creek without a paddle. You are basically not covered on all the areas you could be, or might want to be.

Maybe security and software updates for a few years, at most, being generous. This could easily be the last BB phone. BB could be out of mobile software and TCL out of BB phones, next year. The same cannot be said of Microsoft and mobile software, nor apple and iOS.

The proposition is a major risk. There is no market confidence, and also no service confidence.

That's why no one will touch BB any more even if they do sound like great enterprise devices. What sound minded businessman or woman or board would take such an unnessasary risk with no or little pay off?

A deal with Microsoft would sweeten the deal.

At least then you are a little more covered, and fingers crossed that extra boost would get you covered by a carrier with the momentum. I could see a deal with Microsoft getting at least one carrier to extend its hand. Then you have a chance.

A partnered project would have more service coverage, and more perceived if not actual, long term stability.

Then at least a company can see five years or so ahead, especially with the carrier, and say "yeah this isn't a major risk of lost investment".

Otherwise, unless you were already knee deep in blackberry, why the heck would you? Surely you'd just play it safe and get an iPhone or s8 like everyone else....And with s8 actually having service coverage for Microsoft products......you're going to have to be very competitive....

I mean, basically there is literally no chance its going to work anyway. BB might have had a better chance making keyboard phones with 3d screens for teenagers. But with some help it might actually be possible, rather than impossible for BB to bounce back. That help would make most sense coming from someone the market actually has faith in.

[BigBadWulf]

You could use distribution software to roll out the HUB and BBM if you wanted. People "don't just install bb hub" because if they want BB hub, it makes more sense to buy a BB phone, with apps installed.

It's a BlackBerry

Same with android device and the google suite.

That's what makes it Android. Google Services

No business wants to run unsupported hardware with their software, or to have holes in their service contracts.

That's what the carrier they buy the phones from is for.

Which is almost certainly the case if we are talking some niche BB phone like the KEYone.

Which is a challenge BlackBerry Mobile needs to overcome, or their enterprise hopes are shot. G-d willing, carrier support is part of the delay. They need the phone sold in stores...badly!

1) You have no guarantee blackberry will even keep making software updates, the company is so up to its eyeballs with problems

Microsoft adds no guarantee. They don't write the OS. The security updates are barely touched from Android, because BlackBerry was smart enough to not repackage it like Samsung. BlackBerry has a reputation of timely updates on Android. Hopefully TCL will provide folks confidence this will continue.

There is no service guarantee if the devices fail to run Microsoft software properly

Microsoft doesn't support their apps distributed through Google Play?

There are no carriers. There are no network guarantees, because the hardware isn't supported by any carrier.

No carrier, very little enterprise sales. Period

BB could be out of mobile software and TCL out of BB phones, next year. The same cannot be said of Microsoft and mobile software

Microsoft hasn't released a Windows phone since when?

A deal with Microsoft would sweeten the deal.
At least then you are a little more covered

There's no indication Microsoft is offering additional support. Considering they spun off Lumina support to a 3rd party, they may inspire less confidence.

I could see a deal with Microsoft getting at least one carrier to extend its hand.

A big maybe. With Sammy and Apple, they'll be selling in Microsoft's own stores.

Otherwise, unless you were already knee deep in blackberry, why the heck would you?

Is there an enterprise "knee deep" in GooBerry currently? There may be a few that rolled out a bunch of Privs. Maybe...

I mean, basically there is literally no chance its going to work anyway. BB might have had a better chance making keyboard phones with 3d screens for teenagers. But with some help it might actually be possible, rather than impossible for BB to bounce back. That help would make most sense coming from someone the market actually has faith in.

Microsoft has hardly any mobile market share, despite this "faith".

I'm not sure what the point is here, actually.

On this we agree. 100%

[co4nd]

I don't see the point. I think most businesses that buy full blown 365 accounts buy them separately from any hardware. My company gave me my account that I can use it on up to 5 devices of my choice.

[Drael646464]

TDLR at the end...

It's a BlackBerry

Yes but that doesn't dismiss the fact that "just install it" and "no pre-packaged apps" are actually equally arguments against BB android. There are is a reason people pre-package apps as I explained. Perhaps you just don't understand my point.

That's what makes it Android. Google Services

Nope. Android is an open source OS. Google services is a propetairy software suite that you have to undergo compatibility testing for to get officially approved for, and pay licensing for. Android and google services are two separate things. People like amazon and some Chinese manufacturers make android products with no services. Amazon tablets sell okay.

That's what the carrier they buy the phones from is for.

The carrier only supports the network, and the providing of the phones. They don't support the software, the data or the OS. They are only part of the service deal businesses want.

Microsoft adds no guarantee. They don't write the OS. The security updates are barely touched from Android, because BlackBerry was smart enough to not repackage it like Samsung. BlackBerry has a reputation of timely updates on Android. Hopefully TCL will provide folks confidence this will continue.

Software makers only support officially supported hardware. So yes, Microsoft could add guarantees. The most certainly will be offering that guarantee to the Microsoft edition of the s8. Not that Samsung doesn't auto make it past the bouncer as a VIP, but that phone you can guarantee will get extra development time, as a Microsoft partnership branded product. It will sail as far as Microsoft suite is concerned.

There are three forms of service support businesses want for a phone - carrier, manufacturer, and software.

*The carrier covers the contract and product recall or replacement, but they cant address OS issues, or drivers, or software issues.

*The manufacturer supports the OS (android fork), packaged software (security and HUB etc), and the drivers and firmware, but they can't support the software issues of third party apps.

*The software makers only support the hardware they officially support, as per the google playlist listing - the hardware they write and test the code on. They support the software itself by licensing, but not for hardware not on their list. Blackberry is basically out in the dark here.

Essentially this is like domains or boundaries. Each party covers its own area. The less service coverage you have, the more likely your problem falls into "well not my problem". Which can happen anyway as everyone points fingers at the other parties. Its risk to minimize.

---The manufacturer has a long history of being considered the nearly dead company, and is on record as having abandoned most of its current user base and left them in the dust. bb10 is completely abandoned despite enterprise users still using it. Way to build up trust BB :P

---Basically no other software producers but blackberry are going to be listing the keyONE as a supported device. Not going to happen, lol. Not unless blackberry scored such a partnership. No one cares, not enough numbers.

---Even if they get a carrier, its still pretty grim - you might get hardware replacement and network support, but if your software or data goes bad, who's actually going to help? What developers will patch code, or offer direct software support solutions? Realistically, as a business, would you trust that? For what, a keyboard and a security suite? You'd have to be pretty desperate for one of those, for sure...

The last thing you want is some unforeseen problem costing you millions, or billions. You hedge your bets - you take risks only when they have real pay off. Which there is really none, financially here. Again, this is why business crave rock solid service contracts, why they favour the likes of dell, Microsoft, Samsung and apple. They don't want the ground to shift underneath them. They have other things to focus on than massive systems faults. You might even say, business is paranoid about this sort of thing. I mean dell have terrible products. But they are huge in enterprise solely because of the strength of their service contract and the reputation of their brand.

Microsoft doesn't support their apps distributed through Google Play?

With things like syncing and logins yes. With things "their end". In terms of software conflicts, or ongoing development, only for supported devices, which include no blackberry devices at all. No one supports blackberry, only blackberry. You have the "wrong problem" you are SOL. Microsoft has many partners, even a load of Chinese OEMs. Not blackberry.

Microsoft hasn't released a Windows phone since when?

Microsoft only pioneers hardware, its not their game. Their game has always been software. And as software makers, and supporters, they are going nowhere.

You can't say the same for blackberry - they could be dead in a year in smartphones. On pure reliability and reputation, Microsoft beats Blackberry by lightyears. That has real value to businesses, reliability, trust and reputation. When everything is doubt, you go with your gut.

Side note -With the win32 emu out this year, they won't have to make windows phones. Windows 10 will be able to be produced with very little effort by any android manufacturer. I imagine Samsung will make a few. That's microsofts MO - let the partners do the hardware. Samsung being the kindly partner they are, thanks to all the friendly back and forth, will no doubt do many a windows device. Like their recent hybrid tablet announcement.

And that's always been microsofts plan even with things like the surface - not to "win at hardware", but in their own words "to take the risks for our partners and show whats possible".

Microsoft has hardly any mobile market share, despite this "faith".

Not really relevant when it comes to whether you trust something.

Hardware for them is essentially a software demo platform. Hardware is not microsofts game, never has been.

Trust is what this is about, this whole problem. At a raw emotional level, its about trust.

Why would anyone trust blackberry?

Why just why, would ANYONE trust blackberry, on a visceral, commercial, this is your livelihood, and the livelihood of all your employees and shareholders level. Survival.

If it was life or death, would you trust the company, blackberry, and their handset? That's the sort of gut level vibe we are dealing with here.

I mean there isn't a blackberry product I have owned that hasn't had weird bugs. The priv was a stock product and it has issues. And it had a carrier, but was a dismal commercial failure.

You gotta have some kinda game plan. Is it really to just slightly refine your phones and pitch to existing customers in a saturated market with little to no marketing or price point competition? Come on, that's a terrible plan. You gotta meet market needs, you gotta understand your customer base. You gotta have a real moat. You gotta build relationships. There's no back to drawing board thinking here, its just steady as she goes.

Whats even really different between the failed priv and the keyone? Nothing much that I can see.

And that is the TLDR - nobody trusts blackberry.

Ignoring all the technical details of service contracts, without serious outside support from names people do trust, people are not going to bite.

Blackberry and TCL need partners with bigger mojo. People trust Samsung and last year most of their products caught on fire, lol.

That image is just as important as the service that backs it up (which is also important, but its also, essentially about trust and market sway - blackberry doesn't have enough to be a solid bet). Enterprise is even harder to sway than regular consumers.

BB had AT&T for some of their recent models. It still failed. They need bigger guns. Microsoft is a natural partner as the kings of the enterprise space, and the software businesses use every day.


....PS...


For Samsung, its an exchange. A business transaction. Such partnerships are infinitely more complicated than what benefit the users get.

People tend to use iOS in enterprise more often.

Samsung wants in that space - hence their NeX hybrid, hence their windows hybrid, hence the Microsoft edition. Samsung also don't want to rely on android - they are hedging their bets by building trust with Microsoft. If android goes south, or windows makes its comeback, the weather is weathered. They have said this of android multiple times - they don't want eggs in one basket.

Microsoft get more app users, and the familiarity on mobile platforms with their software, something that for some users is lost - branding as a mobile software provider. Their is really no brand loyalty, only familiarity. So they really don't need a successful phone to begin their re-enter of the market, only successful software. Someone else can make the phone later after the emu is released.

Most of all that is about branding.

They also need hardware partners also to extend their software platform, visioned as it is for the IoT, not just a single hardware platform. They need as many hardware partners as will work with them. Both companies offer the other a lot, and even within this one phone, its about a lot more than the user.

Most users don't stress about software support, or buy office as a package for their home. They don't generally plan that far ahead

But they do get extra trust, and the idea, through marketing "this is a serious business phone- everyone uses these products in business, this is no longer a facebook toy".

And businesses get trust and service coverage. More importantly for both companies, they essentially exchange branding.

Its more nuanced than merely "you can just install it yourself". In the same way BB android apps are. "This is android" "This is blackberry" "this is windows", to paraphrase you, is about not just a user experience, or a functional practicality, although they all have all of those, but an image. For example, modern windows devices are great at media and creativity. But apple has that image. So Microsoft has been trying to steal it with products like the surface desk, and the creators update. Branding.

Apple doesn't gross the highest in the tech sector because the "offered the user something special" with the iPhone 1, or the ipod 1. The iPhone one didn't have a great app store. The app gap was non-existent. They did have one moat, a touch only interface, but with the ipod or iphone they didn't have the best product, the most functions, the best build design, what users most wanted or the highest spec. They had the best branding - they made users want what they had. While apple has always had a vision, and a unique approach, as most major OSes do - it was the visceral vision, the gut level reaction that drover them to the top, even down to the white styling and the pretty colours. Markets rise and fall based on pure perception, even when it contains no reality.