1. Kevin8503's Avatar
    To the Crackberry Community-

    I came to this forum back in October, to solve a issue with the clock on my new Blackberry Curve. In all honesty I just stumbled across it during a Google search, as I'm sure many of you have as well. And again like many of you, I was hooked, and have been here ever since.

    I consider myself a good member. I try to contribute where I can, and learn along the way, hoping to be able to spread the knowledge. I've since introduced several other people to Blackberry and this site in general. I've found it a great resource over the last few months. Not just for answers, but for reading, browsing, just plain old enjoying. But today I am utterly disgusted, and this is why I write this.

    This morning I read a post, right here in this very Curve Forum; it was obviously a spam post of someone making a joke (the post was that his phone broke after a three inch drop, the post was in ALL caps, obvious and purposeful misspellings, zeros for Os, etc. Obviously the OP was making light of the numerous posts we see on the silly things here). I got a laugh out of it, and proceeded to post a reply, in the spirit of the OP, with similar formatting misspellings etc. I even had someone comment on my reply as to how they got a good laugh out of it as well. All in good fun.

    Yet, to my dismay, I receive a private message this evening from someone who shall remain nameless, apparently someone who had been given moderator privileges. The message was rather uncalled for; and I quote..

    "I deleted all of your posts. If you cannot contribute to a thread in a meaningful way, please do not post."

    Censorship? Are you serious? And not just censorship, which I could understand if it was dually needed, but this was NOT a harmful post. I have read some OFFENSIVE things on this website. I have read some PERSONAL attacks on other members on this website. Things that obviously have NOT been censored for whatever reason. Yet here I post a harmless, obviously in the spirit of the post reply, and I'm censored.

    I find this unacceptable. Utterly unacceptable.

    Where are we going with this forum when we can't have fun while we talk about something that is of such a passion for so many of us? Why aren't you going after the REAL problem people. Why am I censored yet other who are blatantly attacking and defaming posts allowed to post and continue to defame while those who make an honest effort to be productive are told to shut up and don't post.

    I end my rant now. And if you are still reading this then kudos to you. I regret I ever had to write this. Something needs to change. If there is going to be policing of these forums, they darn well ought to be fair.

    --Kevin
    "Kevin8503"
    05-02-09 06:40 PM
  2. grandpa dan's Avatar
    I too have received a pm regarding a post with "no real helpful input to the op" my reply to that was it seemed to be a selective enforcement of that rule around these forums.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    05-02-09 06:48 PM
  3. St13fL3r's Avatar
    I know what you mean, but there are over a million members now on CB, so their job just got bigger, im sure they will address the other posts when/if they come across them...
    05-02-09 06:52 PM
  4. ronnie51's Avatar
    Wow so now new moderators are policing the real moderator. Take away their new title (job) here on the forums. And let them have to re-earn the privalege of being a new moderator. Let them feel whats oits like to be policed for there words. I've noticed it too. But the next time I will address to Kevin as i have done in the past. This forum has grown tremendosly lately. Keep ur heads and chins up. And most of all be proud of all the work the real moderators have done here. God Bless.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    05-02-09 06:56 PM
  5. SofaKingKev's Avatar
    i think one thing to be aware of also(i know i do it) is that if a mod sees an "iffy" post, they might go through the members recent post history to see if it is a habit for that given member to post things like that. they might get an overall "tone" for your posts, and act upon that as well. this particular forum is an 83xx help and discussion forum, and should be used accordingly.. there are plenty of threads in the OT, where the rules are a lot more lenient.. the mods jobs are difficult, and i dont envy what they have to do. just something to keep in mind..
    05-02-09 07:00 PM
  6. Heresy's Avatar
    In your particular situation I would not have told you that. I would have told you that this thread is closed because it brings nothing to the community. If you persisted in following the likes of some others here making posts just to get your post count up I would politely PM you and explain in more detail as to why there is a problem. Yes things do get out of line and should be handled. Thats what I think the intent of the new mods is. But I dont post to threads when I think I am not adding anything of value. Bottom line I see is, if your being told this its because the thread wasnt of value and you added to it. I could be wrong. Thats just my view.
    05-02-09 07:08 PM
  7. degilmo's Avatar
    The thing I am grateful for is that periodically we get a "wakeup call" from members reminding us to be civilized, respectful, direct, and clear in our postings. Thanks Kevin, for having the courage to write this and bring this to our attention. I have deep respect for the moderators on this site, and I would hope that the criteria used to select them, as well as their "code of conduct" would be consistent with what will keep us coming back.
    05-02-09 07:13 PM
  8. lastraid's Avatar
    I think that some off topic humor is not bad for any conversation, as long as it stays with scope of the conversation. For life without humor is boring. I think the MODS allow for this and are very tolerant.
    05-02-09 07:48 PM
  9. ChrystalBerry's Avatar
    yeah I have been reading posts from one particular person over the last couple weeks who seems to post randomly and has nothing good to say. And when this person does post you are able to notice the attitude is this persons voice. I just read a post today in this 83xx and this guy talked about a particular MB memory card and this person responded back with "no this isn't right and when you find the thread that you read that from link it because I want to read it". I think people in general feel they can post things on a negative level because they are behind a screen. But are the same people who wouldn't be able to come out and say those types of things to just anyone. I do agree with Kevin things like this end up steering people away from sites and finding others. I love this site but lately I have found it more and more unacceptable replies in these threads and it lays hard on your mind after awhile. I also thing people show their maturity level also by the responses they give. I feel people should show respect and high maturity when using community site like this. We all are hear to be together and share a common interest.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    05-02-09 08:02 PM
  10. Reed McLay's Avatar
    Moderation often means responding to a members complaint.

    Keep in mind, every member here is empowered and encouraged to report posts that violate our terms of service, or need moderator attention.

    Threads like the one cited should be moved off topic when they emerge. Others require content moderation or closing.

    You also cite occurrences of "worse behaviour". It is not condoned, but if it is not reported, we are less likley to act on it.

    05-02-09 08:06 PM
  11. Kevin8503's Avatar
    Thanks to all for the support - and criticism. I welcome both just as equally.

    I'm not trying to say that moderators shouldn't moderate. They should. But, I am saying we should be moderating with common sense.

    As someone pointed out, the moderator could have simply moved the post to another forum, as evidently this one already has been. The PM - not needed but OK, could have just said they had moved the post. Mind you that wasn't even my OP. I was just commenting. The tone of the PM is what stirred me up. That was just uncalled for.

    I clearly understand that our moderators are making case by case judgments. I simply feel, and obviously others do too, that there are moderators here that take their privileges a little too seriously. When your moderating is no longer contributing to the betterment of the community, and starts to turn people away, then we have an issue.

    The rules of the forum I would like to believe are not only written for a reason, but with a spirit in mind when they are. I'd like to believe they are put in place to grow the community - yes the community.

    We are a community of people who share a passion and a common interest. We come from all over the face of the earth, every corner of the world; to share our passion and connect. Is that not what the Blackberry is about - connecting people?

    Maybe I am in the wrong place.. Maybe this is only a site for Q&A.. Maybe I do need to move along as our moderator so kindly told me I could do..

    Again, thanks to all for commenting. Whether you agree or disagree with my letter, the idea that we can have this discussion without worrying that we are going to be censored because some moderator decided to over reach with their power (maybe I should insert a need help question somewhere in here), is what this is all about.


    -Kevin
    Last edited by Kevin8503; 05-02-09 at 09:15 PM.
    05-02-09 08:46 PM
  12. jlevy73's Avatar
    Moderation often means responding to a members complaint.

    Keep in mind, every member here is empowered and encouraged to report posts that violate our terms of service, or need moderator attention.

    Threads like the one cited should be moved off topic when they emerge. Others require content moderation or closing.

    You also cite occurrences of "worse behaviour". It is not condoned, but if it is not reported, we are less likley to act on it.

    Reed I fail to see how you answer addresses the OP's letter. As a matter of fact it completely confused me. I have been on CB for quite a while and mostly to help people out. But the amount of negativity and people just looking to fight has made me look other places for BB info. So you reprimand someone for having fun but do nothing when people bash and flame each other. I would like to know were moderation starts and stops. I know it has been CB's policy to allow member to police themself but has that worked, not at all. I have sent numerous PM's to MODs about negative posting and have I received a response, never. I do not know the OP's post history but assuming it is clean I don't understand how you reprimand him and not the other haters who come here looking to bash. Just my two cents
    05-02-09 09:18 PM
  13. degilmo's Avatar
    Actually, I read Reed's post differently. It was strictly informational, and frankly quite helpful in clarifying the need for us to report unacceptable posts. I think his post was civilized and appropriate... certainly not a reprimand in my view.
    05-02-09 09:22 PM
  14. jlevy73's Avatar
    Kevin your letter was great and I hope that those in power here at CB took a look at it. While CB is a great resource it fell apart long time ago. What I mean is that there are just too many negative people here looking to get a thrill out of putting someone down. It's quite unfortunate. I have an idea of the MOD you are speaking of and it is a shame that this person would make an example of you. Sometimes you give someone a little bit of power and they take it too far. But really the problem is lack of moderation. So I find it odd that some MOD reprimanded you while those who really deserve it go scotch free. Anyway, glad you wrote the letter perhaps this will open an eye or two.
    05-02-09 09:24 PM
  15. jlevy73's Avatar
    Actually, I read Reed's post differently. It was strictly informational, and frankly quite helpful in clarifying the need for us to report unacceptable posts. I think his post was civilized and appropriate... certainly not a reprimand in my view.
    Oh I agree with you, but how does this explain the actions taken by CB on the OP. To me this was language taken off a cheat sheet. I have sent many unacceptable posts to MODs to have nothing done about. So what gives with the double standard (not with you but with CB). Yes his response was civil but IMHO did not address anything. It was just some blah blah language about what the job of moderator is (like we needed that explained). Like I said, no problem with Reed's response just don't think it did anything to address what the OP was trying to say and furthermore the larger picture of what has been going on here at CB too long. Jut my opinion.
    05-02-09 09:28 PM
  16. Heresy's Avatar
    This happens. Sites get bigger and more and more people join. It is a tough job moderating the things a million people say. Yet you have an IDEA of who the bad mod is....then post the MODS name and stop beating around the bush. Its only a website right.....? No, its a community where lots of smart people with great minds help each other out on on particular device that we all here have in common. I stand behind Reeds statement 100%. And once again I will say why I think it happened. Someone made a thread that was pointless. The OP of this thread made a pointless response. The OP in turn got a PM from a MOD(you know who and wont share). My question is how does the OP know that he/she was treated differently than the one that made a pointless thread in the first place?
    Last edited by rlp32; 05-02-09 at 10:09 PM. Reason: missed a word sorry
    05-02-09 10:08 PM
  17. jlevy73's Avatar
    This happens. Sites get bigger and more and more people join. It is a tough job moderating the things a million people say. Yet you have an IDEA of who the bad mod is....then post the MODS name and stop beating around the bush. Its only a website right.....? No, its a community where lots of smart people with great minds help each other out on on particular device that we all here have in common. I stand behind Reeds statement 100%. And once again I will say why I think it happened. Someone made a thread that was pointless. The OP of this thread made a pointless response. The OP in turn got a PM from a MOD(you know who and wont share). My question is how does the OP know that he/she was treated differently than the one that made a pointless thread in the first place?
    First let me say I love your avatar, very cool.

    There is no point in calling the MODs name out as it is irrelevant. I will be more than happy to PM you but to so do in this setting would not be right. My issues isn't that someone created a pointless thread as there are more than those here than I can count. The issue is why punish this particular individual and let those who are really doing harm go free. I respect the many great minds here who have helped people get answers to what they need. I commend forums like these and other sites for that. What I was trying to get at is that MODs do not moderate consistently here. As said previously I have sent many PMs to Mods stating inappropriate responses (just downright nasty) and they did nothing. Whether Kevin was in violation or not is irrelevant I would just like to see some consistency. It goes to the bigger picture of doing a good job across the board not when someone feels like it.
    05-02-09 10:30 PM
  18. CrimePays's Avatar
    I was just thinking, that maybe the reason the OP was more or less "called out" was because the "report" button. Maybe Mods get those when the sign in or something? I wouldn't know, but that was just a semi-reasonable idea/thought I had. I do see your point, but maybe next time you see a pointless post try the report button.
    05-02-09 10:38 PM
  19. ginya-san's Avatar
    I tend to agree with the OP that the site is deteriorating. I understand that with the massive influx of people it's become difficult to contain and I will say that in the last few weeks I've seen improvements in moderation. I hope to see further improvements because I know that with the state of things many members have drifted from our community for various reasons. Censorship is part of mod's jobs but it sounds as though maybe the thread should have simply been moved rather than the measures that were taken against you. I think if we all hang in there we may get to see our crackberry return to it's former days of peace.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    05-02-09 10:39 PM
  20. Heresy's Avatar
    Ok I feel you here. I am not sying Kevin was wrong. I just simply explained that I can see why it happened. I do see wrongful things posted her but they seem to go away from the mods doing what they do. Might not be to your liking but they just got some new mods. Seems like they are trying to take out the trash if you understand my lingo there. Give it a little time and the new mods to get into the swing. End of the day I dont think my feelings would be hurt if I were in the OP's shoes. Theres always going to be politics involved...see how many posts you have how many really added to te site...all that.
    Last edited by rlp32; 05-02-09 at 10:42 PM.
    05-02-09 10:40 PM
  21. SofaKingKev's Avatar
    First let me say I love your avatar, very cool.

    There is no point in calling the MODs name out as it is irrelevant. I will be more than happy to PM you but to so do in this setting would not be right. My issues isn't that someone created a pointless thread as there are more than those here than I can count. The issue is why punish this particular individual and let those who are really doing harm go free. I respect the many great minds here who have helped people get answers to what they need. I commend forums like these and other sites for that. What I was trying to get at is that MODs do not moderate consistently here. As said previously I have sent many PMs to Mods stating inappropriate responses (just downright nasty) and they did nothing. Whether Kevin was in violation or not is irrelevant I would just like to see some consistency. It goes to the bigger picture of doing a good job across the board not when someone feels like it.

    im just not sure that you understand the scope of what it would it would take to take action on EVERY innapropriate response to a thread. im pretty sure the mod just happened across that thread and took action that they thought was necassary.. the mods are never going to see everything and never going to be able to take action on every actionable offense. with that said, this is an online smartphone forum, not a police state. if you dont like the way things are done around here, you dont have to participate.. nobody owes anyone this forum. it is here for everyone to participate in IF THEY WISH. just like when your parents said that driving is a priviledge, and not a right. this is a public forum owned by private people that can ,at anytime, take your priveledge to post here away. my two sense..spelling intentional.
    Last edited by SofaKingKev; 05-02-09 at 10:59 PM.
    05-02-09 10:47 PM
  22. jlevy73's Avatar
    Ok I feel you here. I am not sying Kevin was wrong. I just simply explained that I can see why it happened. I do see wrongful things posted her but they seem to go away from the mods doing what they do. Might not be to your liking but they just got some new mods. Seems like they are trying to take out the trash if you understand my lingo there. Give it a little time and the new mods to get into the swing. End of the day I dont think my feelings would be hurt if I were in the OP's shoes. Theres always going to be politics involved...see how many posts you have how many really added to te site...all that.
    rlp I agree 100% with everythng you said. Appreciate your comments and obviously hope for the best here!
    05-02-09 11:13 PM
  23. Bla1ze's Avatar
    0mGz!! L!k3 R Uz seri0uses?! 3 inches?! I 0nce dr0pps mah ph0n3s fr0m lik3s 84 kil0mEtERS aNd a raINb0ws appeaRs. nExt tiMEs trY fr0m hIGHerS. l0lz l0lz l0lz r0flc0pter pEw pEw peW n0m n0m n0M
    Your said post...while said in jest, was far off topic from the question the actual user asked.

    i T0TALLY JUST DR0PPD Mi PHONE ABT 3 iNCHES FR0M THE GR0UND...iT WENT C0MPLETELY BLK AND THEN THE YELL0W LiGHT CAME 0N.... THEN THE GREEN LiGHT CAME 0N....THEN YELL0W LiGHT AGAIN.... WHAT THE CRAP DiD i D0 T0 Mi PH0NE! DiD i JUST SCREW UP Mi PH0NE??! i HV A FEELiNG THiS iS GNG T0 CAUSE A BUNCH M0RE PR0BLEMS F0R Mi!

    DAMMMMN!
    The user asked a legitimate question to which their were many realistic replies sure the user may have chosen a "different" path when writing his question, you responded with the above.

    I can see the humor there, but really was it helpful to the users legitimate question? Not really..it was an off topic post said in jest.

    Do other posts go untouched that are far worse? No doubt about it they do..but this is where the community aspect comes in as well, moderators cannot be everywhere, read every post, act on every action...The volunteer moderation team relies on you all as a community to report those posts, just as you rely on us to clean up the useless and needless posts everyone has issues with.

    Was to moderator, (remaining nameless as others have suggested) a little abrasive?

    Matter of opinion as I see it, could the warning have been better written? possibly different wording?..maybe a different "tone"?

    All things that could be worked on no doubt about it and with MANY new members on the volunteer mod team we have a lot of processes to go through and learning curves to be dealt with so I will not disagree that unsaid mod could have addressed the situation better with you. We recognize that fact and as the team grows, so does the teams form in handling this situations.
    05-02-09 11:43 PM
  24. jlevy73's Avatar
    Bla1ze thanks for chiming in, what you said makes a lot of sense. I also thank you for including the OP's post so that we could see what you guys had to deal with. You know I find CB to be an excellent resource and have spent much time and energy supporting members with help. I just wish more was to done to ensure that those who need help get it. Many new members come here and observe and are afraid to ask questions because of being lit up. I know you guys can't be everywhere but like everything in life there is a learning curve and CB is still in it's infancy. Keep up the good work Bla1ze.
    05-03-09 01:45 AM
  25. Kevin8503's Avatar
    Bla1ze-

    I also thank you for posting the said post in question, for I feel it actually proves my point.

    How is anyone going to say that post is a serious question? Everything is in all caps, except every letter i, all the o's have been replaced with zeros, and its not misspellings, its purposeful spelling of certain words in off the wall ways.

    It is pretty obvious to me that the original post was a light hearted stab at some of the questions that pop up on our forum, particularly the ones that you see constantly asking for immediate help because a phone suddenly went dead. To write something that off the wall you'd have to literally sit there and TRY to make it goofy.

    I'm just saying comon sense should prevail in things like this. If you are a regular on any of these forums you know what it is like to see the exact same question over and over with the same exact answers. Which is fine, that's the great part of the community - someone is always willing to help. But when we can no longer laugh at ourselves in good humor, aren't we taking this too seriously?

    And some of you have said I could leave the site if I don't like it. And sure, I could - but I do like it here. I like the people, the resources, and the community. And when I feel something is wrong I'm going to stand up and let my voice be heard.

    This is a community of views. And mine is just another view in the bigger sea. I'm not writing this thinking Crackberry is somehow going to revamp its entire forum, I'm not naieve. But in the same respect I'm not going to sit down and shut up because I don't like something. Maybe that's the problem, no one wants to speak up anymore..

    And to all those who've commented above, some of you were wondering about my posting past... I've been on here since Oct 08, I have I think 130+ posts, idk if you can read them but I do have an impecibly clean posting record. I've never done anything on this site but ask for help and dually try and give help back. My response to the OP that started this all, was not an attack or inflamatory. I don't understand how someone can read that and see that as a serious question. I've read thousands of posts on this website. Many with some pretty terrible grammar, spelling, and punctuation. But that OP was overtly clear to be making a joke - thus my response was in keeping with the OP.
    I understand that this is a large website, with many members and many moderators. And I also understand that they aren't going to catch everything. But as shown above, there are supposedly mods who do nothing when members do send pm's with real issues or do use that report button. And then we have mods who are apparently jumping down throats. As one commenter aboved asked, where is the consistancy? What are we really trying to accomplish here? Can't we help others while still being able to poke a little fun at ourselves now and then?

    As far as calling out the name of the mod - no its not necessary. This isn't a smear campaign. I'm not trying to get anyone to lose their mod privliges. I'm sure they worked hard for them. I took care of my personal business with the mod one on one. This isn't a post about one mod. This is about the community as a whole. Issues I've seen and felt need to be dealt with on a wider level. And its obvious I'm not the only one who feels that way.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    05-03-09 04:10 AM
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