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  1. Xiaclo's Avatar
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    Default Z10 a downgrade from 9900?

    Okay, without trying to sound like a troll, what was BlackBerry thinking?

    We get QNX, a device with good specs, and all sorts of goodies. But from my understanding, they just got rid of most of the things that make a BlackBerry a BlackBerry.

    1. No BIS
    Sure, it makes things slower. It also encrypts, compresses and makes data usage by type untrackable (hence so many "unlimited" BIS plans). I would happily trade speed for unlimited data, and in Australia, it's the only unlimited data option (which also extends to my playbook, love it).

    2. No push email
    IMAP-IDLE is not push. And as far as I can tell, neither is active sync. IMAP-IDLE (and I believe active sync) keeps a connection open which gives the illusion of push, but actually just kills battery life. The only way to do true push is to have your carrier track your phone and pass messages (hence device PINs).

    3. No customized notifications
    As of yet (and I'm hoping BeBuzz or similar fixes this soon), there is no way to change the LED colour by message type, or customize sound notifications. Also in this category is bedside mode. Disabling all notifications isn't an option for many of us, we need a loud ring profile for certain calls or messages, but don't want to be woken needlessly.

    4. App permission customization
    Basic app permissions are there, but not the awesome extended permissions of OS7. This is one of the major reasons I still use a BlackBerry. I am overly paranoid when it comes to cloud services in general. I can customize exactly what any app can access, right down to the URLs if I really care to. Android tells you what an app will use, if you don't like it, don't install it, and iOS doesn't even bother. To be fair, the BB10 does allow some control. Although not as granular as OS7, it still beats the competition as you can disable access (except for Android-based apps, which will just close, sticking with Android's model).

    5. Multiple message selection
    The latest touchscreen phones (9800 and 9900 at least) got it right. You can use two-finger selection to selection multiple messages. Either by touching the first and last email at the same time, or touching one email with two fingers and scrolling to the last one. Somehow this was removed in favour of the PlayBook way of selection multiple messages which involves a context menu and selection emails one by one. I can select 10+ messages in a fraction of the time on my 9900 that it takes me on my PlayBook, surely they picked the wrong experience.

    6. Magnet detection
    Edit: I misread someone else's post, only the holster profiles have been removed it seems, locking and unlocking should still work.
    Apparently the holster detection has been removed. So one of the best features of BlackBerries that has been around for ages is now gone. The ability to unholster and automatically have the phone unlocked and the last message opened, or a call answered was amazing. Not to mention when it was holstered, you never had to worry about buttons being pressed or anything else, the phone was locked regardless of what happened to it. Profiles while holstered I didn't use too much, because it was always holstered for me, but I'm sure some people used it and are sad to see that removed as well.


    Overall, it just seems like BlackBerry is so focused on getting more market share that they are willing to remove features that alienate their current users. These were things that no one else had, and kept me on an outdated device which I quite viciously defended for the above reasons (as well as the physical keyboard, but that's a non-issue). It's great that we're getting some apps we've been trying to get for ages, the OS in general looks great, the browser looks fast and generally amazing, but I think they're forgetting what set them apart from the competition for the last few years. There are reasons people stayed, and if they start getting rid of them, people will be going to Android and iOS (or WP8 or Sailfish or Ubuntu phone).

    Of course, I am going entirely of mixed reviews and these forums. If anyone has more accurate information on these points, please let me know, I would be happy to shorten this list.

    Edit: Points 5 and 6
    Last edited by Xiaclo; 02-13-2013 at 09:16 PM.
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  2. TomJasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xiaclo View Post
    Okay, without trying to sound like a troll, what was BlackBerry thinking?.
    Search function at Crackberry.com works very well.
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  3. Masahiro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xiaclo View Post
    Overall, it just seems like BlackBerry is so focused on getting more market share that they are willing to remove features that alienate their current users.
    I know for me personally, there will be a lot of things I will miss from my 9900 (which got stolen anyways), like all the things you listed. However, a lot of consumers simply don't care about BIS, true push e-mail (as long as it's instant, it's considered "push" in the eyes of most people), customized profiles, etc... If that weren't true, BlackBerry wouldn't have lost so many customers to iOS or Android, which don't have any of the features listed. It's something we'll just have to adapt to, or stick with the older RIM devices.

    There are some positives. By switching to BB10, we'll get a device that is (hopefully) just as capable as the older BlackBerrys in terms of communication, but with a more modern OS that won't have us dealing with memory leaks, restarts when deleting or updating apps, or occasional battery pulls. Plus, there will obviously be software updates that may restore some of the older functionality.
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  4. greatwiseone's Avatar
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    Divorcing themselves from BIS was necessary for RIM to expand on their consumer offerings. BB needs to do something about the developing nations, but frankly with LTE speeds and Gb data plans, it makes no sense to have BIS anymore. I'm not sure who came up with "It's not push email anymore" type non-sense. RIM's done an ActiveSync implementation, but it still pushes emails to your device, just not the way they did it before. The OLD way of getting emails, while data efficient, placed a HUGE risk on RIM/BB because if something goes wrong, they'll have a giant outage like they did in 2011. A system designed for 2G networks shouldn't be used when the whole world's moved on.
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  5. 416to604's Avatar
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    hahaha as much as i love my 9900, i dont think its gonna be a downgrade. even with everything you mentioned.
    Z10 - Playbook 32GB
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  6. Xiaclo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greatwiseone View Post
    I'm not sure who came up with "It's not push email anymore" type non-sense.
    It's not nonsense, it a simple network fact. You cannot contact anything without a way to uniquely identify it. With BIS that is the BB PIN (via carrier tracking). With ActiveSync/IMAP-IDLE that is the carrier upstream IP/port and a lot of NAT. As soon as you close that AS/IMAP connection, the server's way to contact your device goes with it. Until there is a way that has a device update the server every time it's IP changes, and carrier start allowing devices to be directly accessible despite NAT, this won't change.

    Yes, it creates a single point of failure. Yes, it can cause major outages and people get very upset. For me at least, I am willing to accept these tradeoffs because I understand how it works, and why they have chosen that route.
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  7. Nindia's Avatar
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    I really wish BIS was still optional. I'd pay $10-15 more per month without hesitation.
  8. Xiaclo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nindia View Post
    I really wish BIS was still optional. I'd pay $10-15 more per month without hesitation.
    Agreed, I do pay $10 / month extra for it as-is in addition to a normal data plan (because of the way my carrier bundles things) but I would happily pay a bit more.
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    OP: a good read!
    Although some points you mentioned are no so crucial, then altogether you put in words something that sits in my mind.
    Some things are more important, some less, and of course it all depends on the user. For me the application permissions are more important then holster profiles. BIS service is absolutely no. 1
    In the view of what OS10 can, and can't do, I'd say I over-abuse the ability of my 9900 to customize the profiles. When I am in the office, the phone would ring, notify me of an SMS, but I don't care for certain email accounts notifications as I have them on my PC. And I mute my BBMs.

    Oh well, I will stick to my 9900 for the time being, and observe the situation with Z10, and the OS updates I might get tempted after all
    Or maybe even better: I will finally win one in one of the "100%-to-come contests" here on CB
  10. dew066's Avatar
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    Brand new O/S, we need to remember that. Remember how terrible Android 2.0 was? It was not good compared to Android 4.1. It will take some time and we should be patient. I think Rim did great and we are stating with an "Android 3.0" and should quickly get to 4.0 if you get my analogy.

    My 2c's anyways...
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  11. Xiaclo's Avatar
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    The difference between BB10 and Android 2.0 is that BlackBerry has already had experience in this market. It's not a new OS from a new company and we are comparing it to the competition. This is the same company, and we are comparing it to the exact OS and devices it is supposed to be replacing. The new features are nice, but if they don't maintain feature parity with OS7, people have no reason to stay with BlackBerry. Let's go through the new features shall we?

    Multitasking:
    Okay, nice to show off, and nice in theory, but when do you really need it? A phone screen (with the exception of some of the massive Samsungs) doesn't have room to actually multitask. This is why it isn't even a big point on iOS to not have it. You can have multiple apps open, and switch between them easily on all major platforms, you don't really need any more than that.

    The Keyboard:
    Below the custom design, the predictive text engine and key hotzones are just swiftkey, which is already available on Android. There is also alternatives for some people like Swype, or even a physical keyboard (although not as nice as the 9900 or the Q10 I'm sure).

    BlackBerry Hub:
    This is one of the nicer features, but with proper notifications, it isn't needed (for me at least). It's nice to show new messages with a single gesture, but BlackBerry isn't the only one that can do this.

    BES:
    Since BIS has been removed, the only alternative for many of the features is BES10. But wait, there is now mobile fusion. So explain why I don't just buy an Android and use mobile fusion with that.

    Camera:
    Instragram for filters, and some of the new Androids also have burst modes, although not as sleek of an interface.

    These features are small to some, and for brand loyalty and hope, people are buying the new devices, and I will be too. But if there is no longer any major differences, why should we be going with BlackBerry? Android 4.1 is already here, why should we wait for BB11 and hope the features we want get included? Or an even better question is, if you already have an Android 4.1, why should you switch?
  12. boss_hog's Avatar
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    Current Iphone and Android customers are ok with there emails and besides my playbook unbridged gets my emails usually the same time as my 9900. As long as they are staying on the phone not reloaded everytime and limited like the others it'll be fine for most
  13. Xiaclo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boss_hog View Post
    Current Iphone and Android customers are ok with there emails and besides my playbook unbridged gets my emails usually the same time as my 9900. As long as they are staying on the phone not reloaded everytime and limited like the others it'll be fine for most
    They are okay with emails because they don't know any different. As long as emails arrive in a timely matter, who cares right? POP3 doesn't have push, but it's always been like that, get a modern email provider, same with IMAP without IDLE. BlackBerry users know the difference, I don't know why people are so okay with this. BlackBerry push via BIS or BES is far superior to ActiveSync or IMAP-IDLE because of the battery life those take to hold a data connection open, not to mention compatibility with any email provider (Yahoo! anyone?).

    They are also okay with fake multitasking, autocorrect, crappy touchscreen keyboards and a slew of other flaws we haven't had to put up with. In that case, might as well just get an iPhone, millions of people are okay with theirs, surely we would be too.
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  14. donmateo's Avatar
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    Not a downgrade, but if I'm not mistaken, 9900 is a flagship, whereas the Z10 is the mid-level (or will be)
  15. bobauckland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xiaclo View Post
    Okay, without trying to sound like a troll, what was BlackBerry thinking?

    We get QNX, a device with good specs, and all sorts of goodies. But from my understanding, they just got rid of most of the things that make a BlackBerry a BlackBerry.

    1. No BIS
    Sure, it makes things slower. It also encrypts, compresses and makes data usage by type untrackable (hence so many "unlimited" BIS plans). I would happily trade speed for unlimited data, and in Australia, it's the only unlimited data option (which also extends to my playbook, love it).

    2. No push email
    IMAP-IDLE is not push. And as far as I can tell, neither is active sync. IMAP-IDLE (and I believe active sync) keeps a connection open which gives the illusion of push, but actually just kills battery life. The only way to do true push is to have your carrier track your phone and pass messages (hence device PINs).

    3. No customized notifications
    As of yet (and I'm hoping BeBuzz or similar fixes this soon), there is no way to change the LED colour by message type, or customize sound notifications. Also in this category is bedside mode. Disabling all notifications isn't an option for many of us, we need a loud ring profile for certain calls or messages, but don't want to be woken needlessly.

    4. App permission customization
    I have no idea, I don't have a Z10 yet. If someone can confirm or deny this point, please let me know. This is one of the major reasons I still use a BlackBerry. I am overly paranoid when it comes to cloud services in general. I can customize exactly what any app can access, right down to the URLs if I really care to. Android tells you what an app will use, if you don't like it, don't install it, and iOS doesn't even bother.

    5. Multiple message selection
    The latest touchscreen phones (9800 and 9900 at least) got it right. You can use two-finger selection to selection multiple messages. Either by touching the first and last email at the same time, or touching one email with two fingers and scrolling to the last one. Somehow this was removed in favour of the PlayBook way of selection multiple messages which involves a context menu and selection emails one by one. I can select 10+ messages in a fraction of the time on my 9900 that it takes me on my PlayBook, surely they picked the wrong experience.

    6. Magnet detection
    Apparently the holster detection has been removed. So one of the best features of BlackBerries that has been around for ages is now gone. The ability to unholster and automatically have the phone unlocked and the last message opened, or a call answered was amazing. Not to mention when it was holstered, you never had to worry about buttons being pressed or anything else, the phone was locked regardless of what happened to it. Profiles while holstered I didn't use too much, because it was always holstered for me, but I'm sure some people used it and are sad to see that removed as well.


    Overall, it just seems like BlackBerry is so focused on getting more market share that they are willing to remove features that alienate their current users. These were things that no one else had, and kept me on an outdated device which I quite viciously defended for the above reasons (as well as the physical keyboard, but that's a non-issue). It's great that we're getting some apps we've been trying to get for ages, the OS in general looks great, the browser looks fast and generally amazing, but I think they're forgetting what set them apart from the competition for the last few years. There are reasons people stayed, and if they start getting rid of them, people will be going to Android and iOS (or WP8 or Sailfish or Ubuntu phone).

    Of course, I am going entirely of mixed reviews and these forums. If anyone has more accurate information on these points, please let me know, I would be happy to shorten this list.

    Edit: Points 5 and 6
    Hang on, they're selling holsters etc, I think the holster profiles remain. Surely? Don't tell me that's gone too?
  16. samolukp's Avatar
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    those are some valid points, i've always been worried about the Blackberry's ability to break through the huge wall put up by iOS and Android. Simply put, there is no reason for anyone on those platforms to choose the BB phone, and for new consumers, BB is almost a non factor. Apps and the overall eco-system drive the smartphone arena now, and unfortunately BB doesn't have either. Yeah sure we get some apps, but its not enough to sway a consumer towards the blackberry. And in all honesty, i don't know how or even if this can be overcome.
  17. Masahiro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobauckland View Post
    Hang on, they're selling holsters etc, I think the holster profiles remain. Surely? Don't tell me that's gone too?
    The sleeper magnet is present, according to the product descriptions of the holsters and sleeves on the Crackberry store. Go check them out.
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  18. BBThemes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masahiro View Post
    The sleeper magnet is present, according to the product descriptions of the holsters and sleeves on the Crackberry store. Go check them out.
    i have one of the flip case things and the magnet is included in that, so yes magnets totally work as per normal BB use.

    As for the app permissions asked about earlier, they are still there, if anything they are better as it clearly says what enables what. imo they are better explained than BBOS ones

    edit: heres the permissions that show (this was for a sports tracker app)
    Last edited by BBThemes; 01-31-2013 at 07:30 PM.

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  19. Phill_UK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by donmateo View Post
    Not a downgrade, but if I'm not mistaken, 9900 is a flagship, whereas the Z10 is the mid-level (or will be)
    Definitely NOT a downgrade!
    The 9900/9930 was RIM's flagship model, but the Z10 is now BlackBerry's new flagship... and it's currently the high-level.
    That's Phill with 2 L's
  20. mathking606's Avatar
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    BIS is not revelant in the eyes of most consumers. A lot of settings were removed since in the eyes of a lot of people BlackBerry was seen as too complicated.
  21. DarioBB92's Avatar
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    LOL no, just no.
  22. Xiaclo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobauckland View Post
    Hang on, they're selling holsters etc, I think the holster profiles remain. Surely? Don't tell me that's gone too?
    As I have said, I don't have a Z10 yet, just going off these forums.

    From Profiles...REALLY DISAPPOINTED! page 2
    Quote Originally Posted by njblackberry View Post
    I guess In Holster and Out of Holster are gone forever.
    And yes, I DO have a Z10 right in front of me.
    Maybe I misunderstood and he was simply referring to the automatic profile switching rather than locking and such, but even so, it's a loss.
  23. Xiaclo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBThemes View Post
    i have one of the flip case things and the magnet is included in that, so yes magnets totally work as per normal BB use.

    As for the app permissions asked about earlier, they are still there, if anything they are better as it clearly says what enables what. imo they are better explained than BBOS ones

    edit: heres the permissions that show (this was for a sports tracker app)
    Is there more granular permissions in advanced settings anywhere? On BB7 anyways, you could specify internet for wifi, 3g, roaming, etc, and very specific settings for GPS, bluetooth etc, or even prompt every access. I don't mind the settings you've shown, and is a MUCH better starting place than the million options that BB7 had for the majority of users, but for me, I want those options.
  24. Xiaclo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathking606 View Post
    BIS is not revelant in the eyes of most consumers. A lot of settings were removed since in the eyes of a lot of people BlackBerry was seen as too complicated.
    The primary reason I want BIS is for the unlimited data plans. In Australia, we don't have the luxury of unlimited data plans except for BlackBerries. Also, it supports push email on older POP3 and IMAP services. I personally don't care about it, but there has also been comments that Yahoo! mail will not do push without a custom sync client (which doesn't exist yet).
  25. Dougielas's Avatar
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    No BIS is a huge road block for me as that is the only way to connect to my work email (OWA).
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