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  1. Y-Chromosome's Avatar
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    Question Why no sliding keyboard?

    With the Z10, BB seems to be reaching out to the iphone market and giving them something that looks like an iphone. With the Q10 they are going for those that like the "Classic" BB layout, albeit with a bigger screen.

    On the other hand, I deliberately bought a Torch for that "best of both worlds" approach, and I can't quite understand why that isn't part of the launch.

    There is no way I'm buying a phone with no physical keyboard and if I went from a Torch to a Q10, I'd feel like I was taking a step backwards somehow.

    I am I alone on this or are there other people yearning for a "Torchesque" BB10 device with a full-surface touchscreen AND a slide-out keyboard?
  2. root2's Avatar
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    Also hope to see a Torch like device for BB10. Not sure if I would use it personally, but I know several people who love the Torch design.
    CrownIsle and stefanozao like this.
  3. Y-Chromosome's Avatar
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    X-Chromosome (that's the missuss) has an an Android phone with a keyboard that slides out from the side. (Also Touch-key combo)
    This gives a wider, arguably better ergonomic keyboard. Also a nice layout.
    Tactility on the Android isn't as nice as the Torch though.
    What would really be cool is a slide-out keyboard that can also rotate so you have the choice of portrait or landscape mode.

    Here's hoping someone in a sunless lab in Hamilton is slaving away at making it a reality.
  4. cjcampbell's Avatar
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    One needs to recognize what form factor is making up the mass majority of sales, and that's full touchscreen phones. The others are niche markets. Possibly BB will create a slider but I wouldn't hold your breath expecting it to come anytime in the near future.
  5. val_lixembeau's Avatar
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    I think it's just a matter of the size of BlackBerry's software development team. They barely got the Z10 and Q10 together. There's no way they could have handled a third device that has slightly different behaviours because it's a different form factor. They just *might* have been able to do a Curve equivalent since that would be the same screen/keyboard/UI interaction model with different hardware abstraction layer and some QA. But a Torch equivalent would need more UI design to take into account the bigger screen along with keyboard along with open/closed states for keyboard. Then they need more testing for all the apps etc.

    Also don't forget that BlackBerry is very small compared to the other phone makers. They need to buy the largest number possible of the same parts or else they won't be able to get a good enough price to build competitive hardware. The more models they have with unique parts, the higher their manufacturing cost gets.
  6. Y-Chromosome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by val_lixembeau View Post
    I think it's just a matter of the size of BlackBerry's software development team. They barely got the Z10 and Q10 together. There's no way they could have handled a third device that has slightly different behaviours because it's a different form factor. They just *might* have been able to do a Curve equivalent since that would be the same screen/keyboard/UI interaction model with different hardware abstraction layer and some QA. But a Torch equivalent would need more UI design to take into account the bigger screen along with keyboard along with open/closed states for keyboard. Then they need more testing for all the apps etc.

    Also don't forget that BlackBerry is very small compared to the other phone makers. They need to buy the largest number possible of the same parts or else they won't be able to get a good enough price to build competitive hardware. The more models they have with unique parts, the higher their manufacturing cost gets.
    I think you're right on the mark as to why they only released two devices. They had to cut a lot of people in their last downsizing so they have to be very lean with their development team. I was a little surprised that the BB10 launch only included two phones and not a tablet as well. Thorsten Heins was interviewed on CBC radio and he indicated that BB10 is going to be a platform for many things going forward. I would expect a tablet to follow the two phones in a not too distant future, with perhaps more phones to follow after that.
    I don't mind the touch screen for certain tasks like zooming, menu selections and link slections, but when it comes to typing I detest it, both for the lack of tactile feedback as for the obscuration of the screen during the typing. I don't think I see myself ever owning a touch-screen only phone. Frankly their popularity baffles me.
    The "limited" number of devices launched is clearly a function of RIM's Blackberry's new leaner coporate reality. I put "limited" in parentheses cuz let's face it. Apple only launches one phone at a time, and so far they have all pretty much looked the same.
  7. rottonj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Y-Chromosome View Post
    With the Z10, BB seems to be reaching out to the iphone market and giving them something that looks like an iphone. With the Q10 they are going for those that like the "Classic" BB layout, albeit with a bigger screen.

    On the other hand, I deliberately bought a Torch for that "best of both worlds" approach, and I can't quite understand why that isn't part of the launch.

    There is no way I'm buying a phone with no physical keyboard and if I went from a Torch to a Q10, I'd feel like I was taking a step backwards somehow.

    I am I alone on this or are there other people yearning for a "Torchesque" BB10 device with a full-surface touchscreen AND a slide-out keyboard?
    You are not alone, love my torch. BB may make one, who knows. Hopefully fans of the form factor are still around and have not jumped to other platforms while they are deciding what people want vs what they will be getting from BB
    CrownIsle likes this.
  8. Y-Chromosome's Avatar
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    I bought my torch on a three year plan which still has ten months on it. This is good in a way as that gives me some breathing space to watch for what's next from BB.

    In the meantime I'm satisfied with the phone, don't need to keep up with the Jone's and I'm not that keen to learn my way around another new OS.
    In a nightmare scenario I may find myself being forced to learn my around Windows 8 and BB 10 simultaneously. My alcohol consumption may increase dangerously.
    CrownIsle likes this.
  9. nakapozian's Avatar
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    I came from a Bold 9900 to the Z10. And let me tell you that I loved the Keyboard on my 9900. That being said the Z10 on screen keyboard is AMAZING!! With the auto correct feature (which is incredible) or the ability to swipe up for the suggested words, I think I'm typing faster than I did on my 9900. And the ability to either tap the delete key or swipe to delete entire words is very helpful.

    Hope that helps.
  10. MusicMtl's Avatar
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    #10  

    Default Why no sliding keyboard?

    I'm also a big fan of the Torch 9810/9800 design. Hoping for a slider, but I was really impressed with the Z10 keyboard. It's really very accurate! Have yet to make my decision on which BB10 to buy...

    Sent from my BlackBerry 9810 using Tapatalk
    CrownIsle likes this.
  11. Skeevecr's Avatar
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    While they may not have had the resources to do another form factor, the truth of the matter is that each new model has to expand the reach of bb10 by enough to cover its development rather than steal sales from another model, a touch and a qwerty do that, cheaper models do that too, but a slider would have mostly been competing for the attentions of qwerty die-hards so there was no room for it on the roadmap and probably won't be until bb10 is big enough that even a niche form factor is a viable option in the market.
  12. Y-Chromosome's Avatar
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    How about a separate bluetooth keyboard as an add-on accessory for Z10 owners.
    Or a keyboard dock or clip on.
    Add-on keyboards are popular for tablets. Why not for phones?
  13. Y-Chromosome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skeevecr View Post
    While they may not have had the resources to do another form factor, the truth of the matter is that each new model has to expand the reach of bb10 by enough to cover its development rather than steal sales from another model, a touch and a qwerty do that, cheaper models do that too, but a slider would have mostly been competing for the attentions of qwerty die-hards so there was no room for it on the roadmap and probably won't be until bb10 is big enough that even a niche form factor is a viable option in the market.
    To address this specifically. If a Torch-10 would steal market share from a Q10 or vice-versa (both appeal to Querty die-hards) why give up half the phone surface to a keyboard when they could have used the Torch layout and had a screen size equivalent to the T10.
    It just seems to me that a Torchesque layout would have had broader appeal than the Boldesque layout they chose to go with.
    The layout they chose sacrifices potential screen size to accomodate a physical keyboard, the torch layout wouldn't have.

    In fact they could have gone with ONE phone on the launch, a Torch-like device with the same size screen as the T10 and the same size keyboard as the Q10 and either concentrated all their resources on the one phone or do a Phone + Tablet launch instead of 2 X Phone launch.

    Maybe Torches didn't sell that well, but that may have more to do with timing and lack of an innovative OS to go with it. Torch straddled OS 5, 6 and 7 in it's sales concurrent with many other phones of various layouts already in circulation. I bought my torch and quickly downloaded an upgrade to OS six, only to hear shortly after that the 9810 would host OS7. In the meantime, all the managers in my company have Bolds, and there was no way there was gonna be budget to upgrade everyone's phones no matter what was available.
  14. KemKev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Y-Chromosome View Post
    With the Z10, BB seems to be reaching out to the iphone market and giving them something that looks like an iphone. With the Q10 they are going for those that like the "Classic" BB layout, albeit with a bigger screen.

    On the other hand, I deliberately bought a Torch for that "best of both worlds" approach, and I can't quite understand why that isn't part of the launch.

    There is no way I'm buying a phone with no physical keyboard and if I went from a Torch to a Q10, I'd feel like I was taking a step backwards somehow.

    I am I alone on this or are there other people yearning for a "Torchesque" BB10 device with a full-surface touchscreen AND a slide-out keyboard?
    Love my Torch 9810 and would love to see a BB10 with similar form factor. Though I don't care for the touchscreen keyboards, the Z10 made me a covert (still getting used to the keyboard). Having used the bigger screen on the Torch, there is no way I could go back to a Q10 screen size. The ideal would be a "Torchesque" BB10 but I am not holding my breath.
    CrownIsle likes this.
  15. deltact's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Y-Chromosome View Post
    To address this specifically. If a Torch-10 would steal market share from a Q10 or vice-versa (both appeal to Querty die-hards) why give up half the phone surface to a keyboard when they could have used the Torch layout and had a screen size equivalent to the T10.
    It just seems to me that a Torchesque layout would have had broader appeal than the Boldesque layout they chose to go with.
    The layout they chose sacrifices potential screen size to accomodate a physical keyboard, the torch layout wouldn't have.

    In fact they could have gone with ONE phone on the launch, a Torch-like device with the same size screen as the T10 and the same size keyboard as the Q10 and either concentrated all their resources on the one phone or do a Phone + Tablet launch instead of 2 X Phone launch.
    Agreed. I chose the 9810 over the 9900 because I wanted to have my cake and eat it too, a large touchscreen and physical keyboard [or is it the other way around?]. That said, the major compromise with the 9810 is that the keyboard is the smallest of all the OS7 devices because it has to sit in a recessed tray. Maybe launching BB10 with a keyboard that didn't match or exceed the 9900's experience would have annoyed users? Another reason may be a desire to keep the phone as slim as possible, but I'd rather have a thicker and heavier phone if I can have increased battery life. On the other hand, a Torch 10 with the same resolution as the Z10 would have simplified matters for app developers, if it is easier to code for open/closed keyboard states than a second resolution.

    I'm still hoping there will be a BB10 slider. I saw a patent on a hidden keyboard (BlackBerry seeks patent on hidden QWERTY), so maybe there's hope on the horizon. I can do an early renewal on my contract without penalty...tested out the Z10. Yes, the touchscreen keyboard is nice, but still not as confidence-inspiring as a physical keyboard. I'm also a little worries about the Z10's battery life.
    CrownIsle likes this.
  16. Skeevecr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Y-Chromosome View Post
    To address this specifically. If a Torch-10 would steal market share from a Q10 or vice-versa (both appeal to Querty die-hards) why give up half the phone surface to a keyboard when they could have used the Torch layout and had a screen size equivalent to the T10.
    It just seems to me that a Torchesque layout would have had broader appeal than the Boldesque layout they chose to go with.
    The layout they chose sacrifices potential screen size to accomodate a physical keyboard, the torch layout wouldn't have.
    The simple answer is that the Bold was a vastly more popular form factor than the torch.

    In fact they could have gone with ONE phone on the launch, a Torch-like device with the same size screen as the T10 and the same size keyboard as the Q10 and either concentrated all their resources on the one phone or do a Phone + Tablet launch instead of 2 X Phone launch.
    That would have resulted in a phone that had a worse keyboard experience while also being thicker and heavier than the z10, pleasing almost nobody.
  17. Skeevecr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deltact View Post
    Agreed. I chose the 9810 over the 9900 because I wanted to have my cake and eat it too, a large touchscreen and physical keyboard [or is it the other way around?]. That said, the major compromise with the 9810 is that the keyboard is the smallest of all the OS7 devices because it has to sit in a recessed tray. Maybe launching BB10 with a keyboard that didn't match or exceed the 9900's experience would have annoyed users? Another reason may be a desire to keep the phone as slim as possible, but I'd rather have a thicker and heavier phone if I can have increased battery life. On the other hand, a Torch 10 with the same resolution as the Z10 would have simplified matters for app developers, if it is easier to code for open/closed keyboard states than a second resolution.
    Sadly, the market as a whole does not seem to be too keen on the idea of buying a thicker or heavier phone, with the latter only being considered an option if it comes with a barn door sized screen and with the launch of bb10 BB clearly had to focus on the form factors with the widest appeal which are all touch and a bold qwerty.
  18. oufc_gav's Avatar
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    Sliders are more complex to engineer, have more reliability issues, are by their nature thicker and heavier which is not popular in the current market, and are a niche product in the market.
    All of these things explain why BB haven't put one out at launch.
    There will though be 6 BB10 products by the end of the year - one of those may well be a slider.
  19. Y-Chromosome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skeevecr View Post
    That would have resulted in a phone that had a worse keyboard experience while also being thicker and heavier than the z10, pleasing almost nobody.
    How would the keyboard experience be worse? I borrow Bolds from my company all the time to use on trips. Using the keyboard on a Torch and a Bold is identical. They are the exact same size, shape and layout.

    @oufc_gav
    It's true what you say about the complexity of sliders, but that development work was already done for the torch. As an engineer myself, I'd say "cut and paste". A few simple dimensional adjustments for the bigger screen and your done. As for reliability I've had my Torch over two years and no issues whatever with the slide-out keyboard.
    Using the touch-screen keyboard on the other hand....
  20. Y-Chromosome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oufc_gav View Post
    There will though be 6 BB10 products by the end of the year - one of those may well be a slider.
    I really hope you're right. If it comes out near year's end that will be just in time for my contract renewal. Christmas holiday would be a good time to get used to a new OS.
  21. altrax's Avatar
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    Try the keyboard on the Z10.

    Other than a short and horrible experience with the Iphone 4 touch keyboard I have always used BlackBerry QWERTY phones I have been typing on the Dev Alpha since the BlackBerry 10 update came out and have gotten extremely comfortable with it.

    People under estimate the technology behind the keyboard having the hit boxes move to accommodate where you press buttons works extremely well and the auto correct / swipe up suggestions get so good at predicting your Grammer structure after continued use that it is very easy to type very well on the Z10 keyboard. When I switched from my Dev Alpha to Z10 for the first couple days my typing went back to crap... that's what blew me away my touchscreen keyboard skills hadn't improved as much as I thought they had, it was BB10 making my typing improve.

    I am a convert and will be skipping the Q10 as I enjoy and look forward to typing out emails on my Z10 as much as I did when I first got my 9900.

    Also realize that store demos will have had hundreds of different people using them and you won't get as good of a keyboard experience as you will with your own Z10. BlackBerry has made the keyboard a very personalized experience and rumor is that in future updates you "Keyboard" profile will be linked to your BBID so when you device switch you don't experience the slide in typing quality

    Posted using CrackBerry App on BB10
  22. Skeevecr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Y-Chromosome View Post
    How would the keyboard experience be worse? I borrow Bolds from my company all the time to use on trips. Using the keyboard on a Torch and a Bold is identical. They are the exact same size, shape and layout.
    Go compare them again, the keyboard on the bold is both larger and also more comfortable due to not be in that little tray.
  23. MusicMtl's Avatar
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    Personally, I prefer the smaller Torch and older Bold/Curve keyboards to the larger Bold 9900 one.
  24. deltact's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by altrax View Post
    Try the keyboard on the Z10.

    Other than a short and horrible experience with the Iphone 4 touch keyboard I have always used BlackBerry QWERTY phones I have been typing on the Dev Alpha since the BlackBerry 10 update came out and have gotten extremely comfortable with it.

    People under estimate the technology behind the keyboard having the hit boxes move to accommodate where you press buttons works extremely well and the auto correct / swipe up suggestions get so good at predicting your Grammer structure after continued use that it is very easy to type very well on the Z10 keyboard. When I switched from my Dev Alpha to Z10 for the first couple days my typing went back to crap... that's what blew me away my touchscreen keyboard skills hadn't improved as much as I thought they had, it was BB10 making my typing improve.

    I am a convert and will be skipping the Q10 as I enjoy and look forward to typing out emails on my Z10 as much as I did when I first got my 9900.

    Also realize that store demos will have had hundreds of different people using them and you won't get as good of a keyboard experience as you will with your own Z10. BlackBerry has made the keyboard a very personalized experience and rumor is that in future updates you "Keyboard" profile will be linked to your BBID so when you device switch you don't experience the slide in typing quality

    Posted using CrackBerry App on BB10
    Sounds good, I was hoping to read more feedback like this from ex-physical keyboard users. As much as I'd want to hold out for a slider, I can upgrade right now and my carrier has been bad for slow releases and limited model selection (used to only offer the 9790 and 9360), so I don't even know if I'd be able to pick the Q10.
  25. Y-Chromosome's Avatar
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    Used both within minutes of one another and never noticed a difference. Maybe older model Bold have smaller keyboard than the latest ones? I don't know.
    It's a bit presumptious to say that a completely hypothetical phone would give an inferior keyboard experience to the Q10. It would certainly have been better than the existing Torch or Bold as they have chosen to go with physically larger devices.
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