- 02-04-13, 08:38 PM #176
- 02-04-13, 09:53 PM #177
I will admit that I've wanted ActiveSync for a long time. I am grateful that BB10 has it. I will finally be able to connect to my office exchange account. BIS let me connect through exchange's OWA, but that only did part of the job.
But of course, ActiveSync does nothing for my personal pop3 email account.
- CrackBerry User
02-04-13, 10:51 PM #178
- 30 Posts
- 02-05-13, 01:09 AM #180
Eudora can do it, Thunderbird can do it, Pegasus Mail can do it, The Bat! can do it, Apple Mail can do it, Mulberry can do it, maybe even Outlook Express can do it. On the mobile front, K-9 Mail for Android can definitely do it as I have posted previously.
- 02-05-13, 03:37 AM #181
SERIOUSLY angry with BB over this ridiculous decision. Not only flip the finger at consumers who liked BIS and everyone who valued data compression, but also at small businesses who lack the license requirements for BES or a free lance contractor who travels internationally. I am thinking of a loved one who will be seriously, seriously impacted. Means our communication will suffer GREATLY and he is actually thinking about doing away with BB altogether, and I've NEVER heard him say that.
I never thought that I would see the day when BB flipped the bird to so much of its customer base.
- 02-05-13, 03:57 AM #182
Killing off BIS SUCKS
As something of a BIS and BB neophyte, can someone explain exactly how BIS works and how data can be free and unlimited over BIS worldwide when at the end of the day, the data has to be transmitted over the same licensed spectrum that the carriers had to pay tens of billions of dollars for? Is there something else going on?
The most valuable thing a carrier owns is time per spectrum and they generally charge highly for it, how did it work out that a carrier is willing to give up unlimited time on that spectrum when they could be charging much more for it from non blackberry customers?
I don't understand how it worked out.
- 02-05-13, 04:23 AM #183
Re: Killing off BIS SUCKS
For me, I can actually live with my Android or iPhone except for on travel. Because data goes through a compression process as it goes through the network operation center you end up sipping data as opposed to gulping it as Android and the iPhone do. For people who travel, this compression is a godsend.
People complained of email size limits as it went through the NOC an was delivered through your carrier but for international travelers it meant staying connected at a minimum of data consumption and therefore lesser costs.
Additionally, there is no mining of information as there is in Gmail.
To me, those things are infinitely more important than simply the frequency of mail delivery. I would gladly remain on BIS if I had to pay an extra$10 more for it. To me, data compression is that important. It has ALWAYS been that important.
Sent from my SEXY HOT RED SGIII using Tapatalk 2
Last edited by qbnkelt; 02-05-13 at 05:47 AM.
- 02-05-13, 04:35 AM #184
I would like to add 1 more thing that BIS eventually makes your battery life better compared to other phones.
1. Because your phone doesn't have to poll and check email every 15 mins or hour. The servers do that and send to your phone.
2. The data sent to your phone is compressed that means the data connection has to download less data so the phone battery is consumed less.
I am currently using a Torch 9800 and its been like 14 hours since charge and its down to 75% and its on WiFi (which actually helps save battery). By the time i put it on charging everyday its between 30-40%. And on a daily basis i receive anywhere between 100-200 emails, 2 hours talking on phone, a lot of BBM, WhatsApp, Group messages etc.
In past 14 hours i have received like 200 BBM's, 30-40 WhatsApp, 50 Emails, 20-30 group messages. and 5-7 SMS. I have talked around 20 mins on phone.
- 02-05-13, 02:30 PM #185
IMAP is just not a reasonable replacement for BIS.
If you've deleted a message on your phone, it deletes it from the server on the next sync. Many people get lots of emails that they don't need on their phone, but want to have saved on their PC. Don't tell me this doesn't happen. I don't want to wade through dozens of emails on my phone to find one or two that I do want to keep on my phone for a few days. I hate clutter, keeping lots of emails jumbled up in one big folder really ticks me off. That's why I hate "unified" inboxes that bring together email, text, facebook, BBM, etc...
The other problem with IMAP is that it still needs some form of connection open to the server, some form of data going back and forth to keep that connection open. This has an adverse effect on data usage as well as battery life.
You just can't overlook the simplicity and convenience of "Leave a copy on the server". I get emails through 5 different accounts with my ISP and I have them all sorted into Outlook folders automatically based on who they are from. When I get 4 or 5 emails at a time, I don't mind having these together in one little list I can check on my phone. If needed, I can reply from the same email address as BIS provides a nice SMTP relay or I can delete them from the phone and deal with them when I return to my PC.
- 02-05-13, 02:42 PM #186
- 02-05-13, 02:55 PM #187
Now an issue with email is this. If I open an email with graphics(html) then that data is transfered via standard HTML traffic, not through the NOC itself. So when this data is retreived, the roaming network reports that back to home base. Another reason why WiFI was such a blessing.
I consider this to be fairly accurate, but I am sure that the smarter than me will report any errors if any.
- 02-05-13, 02:55 PM #188
Perhaps if you have one email account, battery life and data usage wouldn't be too bad with IMAP, but I have 5. I wonder how much data usage and battery drain I'll see with IMAP keeping 5 connections open.
- 02-05-13, 03:03 PM #189
I'm a Fan of BIS, that's for sure. I like the security and the fact that it's proprietary to RIM.
However, BB 10 is the new age of smartphone, and for that, I have to understand that BIS is going the way of the Dodo with this new platform of Smartphone.
I'm not happy with this, but I'll accept it because RIM has to move forward or be left behind forever. As much as I love my 9780, when it retires, I'll be a happy 10 user. Sans BIS.
- 02-05-13, 03:08 PM #190
I would love nothing more in this world than to play Angry Birds on my phone while waiting somewhere for someone or something. But not at the expense of putting up with lackluster email support. And for that, I'll probably keep my 9800. I'm really tempted to go look at the Z10, but I know I'll just end up buying it and be stuck with a frustrating email experience for the next three years.
- CrackBerry User
02-05-13, 03:37 PM #191
- 39 Posts
My guess is it was the trade off the carriers insisted upon in order to support BlackBerry 10.
RIM might as have well closed the doors because they're going to **** off countless loyal customers.
BIS is the primary reason I use BlackBerry - and now they've taken it away I might as well have an Android.
- 02-05-13, 03:49 PM #192
We really don't know if it was the carriers requesting this or not. I'd imagine the carriers like the data compression as it is less taxing on the network.
I seem to recall that RIM was having issues getting BIS to work on QNX many months ago and that was part of the reason for the delay. Perhaps they simply gave up on it for that reason? Doesn't make sense however if BES10 works OK.
It's too bad there's no BESx for BB10 or I'd set up a little server at home to push out my POP emails and provide me with an SMTP relay.
- CrackBerry User
02-05-13, 04:04 PM #193
- 39 Posts
"I seem to recall that RIM was having issues getting BIS to work on QNX many months ago"
Seriously, this has to be nonsense. I'd lay my 35 years of software architecture experience on this being a commercial decision of one kind or another. More than likely BIS is the domain of the old BB OS developers, and the shiny new QNX engineers didn't like the old stuff. My experience is that all technical problems end up being about the people involved.
Same reason Java on the devices was killed. Nothing to do with technology. Everything to do with money.
- 02-05-13, 04:25 PM #194
Killing off BIS SUCKS
- 02-05-13, 05:13 PM #195
- 02-05-13, 05:46 PM #196
How much of a time differential? If it's significant, I'd guess that your IMAP client is not using IMAP IDLE to pick up new messages. Some IMAP clients (and servers) don't support that mode, or it's not enabled by default. So then it would be up to the polling-frequency setting in your client again.
I grant you that IMAP uses some data, but it's orders of magnitude smaller than downloading everything over POP3 or even doing small header or partial mail retrievals by default. (Which is essentially what BIS does anyway, at least on my OS6 device - I can't read a large message without having to hit "continue" "continue" "continue" several times.)
While I certainly understand the BIS cost advantages for people in certain places in the world, I also have a fairly big mental "evil list" of all the limitations that BIS imposes that I for one will not miss. Maximum size of messages, slow message retrieval to the device (esp wrt attachments), inability to see full headers on messages for troubleshooting purposes, and a few other things I can't remember right now. Those things are what drove me to install "LogicMail" on my BBOS 6 device, which provides much more sophisticated functionality than the native BB mail client, with the exception of some OS integration aspects.)
Ah well now you've piqued my curiosity.
- 02-06-13, 01:56 AM #199
MOST desktop IMAP clients don't even delete immediately by default, they move it to a trash folder and then you decide how you want to manage that folder. "Immediate purge" is one option but it's not the only option. Here is how Thunderbird does it: Deleting messages in IMAP accounts - MozillaZine Knowledge Base
The beauty of IMAP is that you can use half a dozen devices and they can all see the same exact message list. (With some limits - some mobile devices don't show folders or limit folders by default for resource-consumption reasons, for example. But POP has its own resource-utilization issues.) Managing POP is often a hassle because you have to keep track of where you've downloaded messages, you have to be careful of duplicates, and when you send a message, the only way to keep a copy on a client that didn't actually send the message is CC or BCC it to yourself and that's a major kluge and hassle in and of itself.
People have different requirements and while some people have systems that work for them with POP, others hate it.
(Note: the issues that affect battery life on a mobile device using email are not necessarily just "data size" related. One issue has to do with just waking-up the data link periodically, which uses battery even if you send/receive almost nothing. If I'm not mistaken some of these newer IMAP extensions have specific mechanisms to improve that.)
FWIW - data compression is also possible on non-BIS email. IE there is a standard data-compression mechanism for IMAP that was published in 2007. Here is the standards document: RFC 4978 - The IMAP COMPRESS Extension
EAS also has compression mechanisms built in to it.
- 02-06-13, 02:28 AM #200
BB's official response to the lack of BESx for BB10 is that they have switched to a per-user licensing model, where it's only about $99 per user now rather than having to pay a lot of money for a server license. I don't know what the minimum user count is but even if it is 5 users that would be wayyyy cheaper than licensing/operating a dedicated email server running Exchange and BES10.
I'd be willing to bet that the JavaME environment that RIM has historically used is just too inefficient and hamstrung to be useful any more. No one ever wrote anything in Java because it gave the best performance.
Lastly - BB10 still has Java actually - in a way - because Android's central VM (called Dalvik) is some sort of optimized runtime that uses code converted from Java-compiled apps to Dalvik-compiled apps. (Or something like that. I'm not a programmer.)
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