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  1. shingi_70's Avatar
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    Default How many models of BB10 phones do you think rim should have at launch?

    Question is in the title. I was thinking about this earlier while looking at what HTC is doing with its series one line and the rumprs of a 10 inch Playbook soon. I was thinking instead of having just one flasgship phone at launch they need to have at least three to address the various types of users. I could see rim launching with three models.

    A 4 inch slab phone to address the popularity of that form factor.
    A 3.5 inch phone for people looking for something smaller..
    Not sure the size but another torch like phone to take care of the people who need a physcial keyboard.

    My only problem with this is I'm not sure how a bold/curve type model would fit into the mix as its my favorite phone type. I guess that would be a. Bold ghats nothing but a screen and lifts up to reveal a keyboard.

    My reasoning for having three models would be to pair them up with the two playbook models. Having a 3.5 inch phone compliments a 7 inch tablet while a 4 inch works better with a 9 inch tablet.

    So what do you guys think were going to see this fall?

    Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2 Beta-4
  2. Flexin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shingi_70 View Post
    Question is in the title. I was thinking about this earlier while looking at what HTC is doing with its series one line and the rumprs of a 10 inch Playbook soon. I was thinking instead of having just one flasgship phone at launch they need to have at least three to address the various types of users. I could see rim launching with three models.

    A 4 inch slab phone to address the popularity of that form factor.
    A 3.5 inch phone for people looking for something smaller..
    Not sure the size but another torch like phone to take care of the people who need a physcial keyboard.

    My only problem with this is I'm not sure how a bold/curve type model would fit into the mix as its my favorite phone type. I guess that would be a. Bold ghats nothing but a screen and lifts up to reveal a keyboard.

    My reasoning for having three models would be to pair them up with the two playbook models. Having a 3.5 inch phone compliments a 7 inch tablet while a 4 inch works better with a 9 inch tablet.

    So what do you guys think were going to see this fall?

    Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2 Beta-4
    I think we will see just one.

    If the do three I think it should be a Bold, slider and a slab. I don't like the idea of two slabs so close in size.

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  3. BoldPreza's Avatar
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    At launch? Only the one. I am guessing it will be the London.

    But they can spread out the launch along with software updates throughout the year to four models.

    So start with the London, then the new Bold, then something like we saw with the Blade and a new Curve.

    Don't do them all at once, spread them out so BB is still in the news and not seen as having a product drought. Plus that leaves time to sell off remaining OS 7 devices and the Curve did launch last anyway the last time so I don't think it would be a big loss.
    8700, Bold 9000, Bold 9700, Torch 9860, Z10! Spider-Man case FTW!!!
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    All I want is the new Blade.
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    They need to get one right and work on only that one. So just get the 4 inch slab out and perfect it before getting into other form factors.
  6. FlashFlare11's Avatar
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    If they were releasing the Blade concept, then that would be all they'd need.

    But I think a full-touch device, while not necessarily what we want (being BlackBerry users), but is good for RIM. It will put BB10 on the same plane as WP7.5/8, Android, iOS, etc. After they've estabilshed a good footing for BB10 in the full-touch space, then they should release Bold and Torch-style devices (though, I don't know if a Torch-style device is really that necessary. I love my Torch, but will most probably get the London). Plus, the full-touch experience is the best for apps and BB10 navigation.

    As for low-end devices (for emerging markets), I think RIM will continue with the Java-based BBOS there until iOS and Android devices become more popular and affordable, where then they'll switch to BB10 in those regions as well.
  7. _StephenBB81's Avatar
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    At BB10 Launch, they should launch just a single Slab phone, that is where they will be graded the most, they need to focus on that for Launch,

    By Feb 2013 I would hope they have a full line of phones, and as I said in this thread
    How many Phone models should RIM make with BB10?
    I think RIM's full line should look something like this tracking forward
    Quote Originally Posted by deRusett View Post
    I will be WAY different than most o you in my opinion

    RIM needs
    1:Premium All Touch BB10 device - New Model Yearly
    2:Entery level All Touch BB10 Devie - New Model 18-24 month cycle
    3:Premium QWERTY Candy Bar device - Alternating Model between 9900 size, and 9700 size yearly
    4:Enter Level QWERTY Candy Bar device - Alternating yearly models with different Niche focus
    5:Ultra durable Flip Phone with QWERTY ( Style like) - Durable Niche market phone, contractor, military, outdoor extreme markets,
    6:Ultra Small Candy Bar SureType ( Pearl like) - Ultra portable, slim line, made for the person on the go, with medium/low smartphone requirements, most likely targeted as a kids smartphone, or fitness buff smartphone high storage, light weight, good battery, no camera.
    7: Mid Range Portrait slider, Hybid device between ALL touch and QWERTY, 18-24 month upgrade cycle


    I would want the Entry level all touch device for the NON Latin/Roman alphabet markets with the low GDP per capita groups. these devices will not be devices that get upgraded often so you want them to be on the current OS, and not just push BB7 devices into that market, they need BB10 global market share, China has 1 Billion mobile subscribers, they need BB10 in there.

    The Entery level QWERTY like current curves is for the prepaid market and the low cost markets again, they should do different curve models changing the focus every 12-18 months, so upgrades are worth changing for. maybe 1 year a HD camera Curve model, the next year a high storage, model,

    The Style like device would be made like the durable motorola phones for Military applications, and for extreme weather markets and for contracting job sites, NO ONE is addressing these needs in smartphones main stream, costs are astronomical and options are not there, MDM doesn't exist so RIM could take this market with a quality built deployable and remote manageable smartphone

    I'd like to see the Pearl device brought back, appox 110 x 50 x 11 mm, suretype keyboard, this device is to target to the kid market, the fitness freak market it is a glorified phone/MP3 Player, small screen, compact size you CAN txt on it, but that isn't the primary function it is a PHONE, and a MP3 Player


    RIM needs to be a global player with BB10, they need a 2 year road map with multiple device launches globally over those 2 years to ensure they have over 50% of their user base running BB10
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  8. FlashFlare11's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deRusett View Post
    At BB10 Launch, they should launch just a single Slab phone, that is where they will be graded the most, they need to focus on that for Launch,

    By Feb 2013 I would hope they have a full line of phones, and as I said in this thread
    How many Phone models should RIM make with BB10?
    I think RIM's full line should look something like this tracking forward
    Do you think they should continue to release those entry-level devices in North America? It seems that most smartphone customers would rather have a high-end device (like the iPhone, SGSII, etc.) if they're buying a smartphone at all.
    Last edited by FlashFlare11; 03-24-2012 at 04:55 PM.
  9. _StephenBB81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashFlare11 View Post
    Do you think they should continue to release those entry-level devices in North America? It seems that most smartphone customers would rather have a high-end device (like the iPhone, SGSII, etc.) if they're buying a smartphone at all.
    Yes I think they should

    I still see more Curves than I see Bolds, and I see a lot of Entery level Android devices, RIM needs to get the success of the 83XX series again, the low cost "fleet phone" that people actually want. It is RIM's best interest to have IT departments go back to the Company phone, and kill the BYOD movement, I read a lot about IT issues and company malware threats that have gone up in Canadian business due to the BYOD policy (including laptops and tablets) So if RIM can launch a home run device like the Curve was at those price points company's wont be looking at the astronomical cost of getting phones people will use anymore.
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  10. FlashFlare11's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deRusett View Post
    Yes I think they should

    I still see more Curves than I see Bolds, and I see a lot of Entery level Android devices, RIM needs to get the success of the 83XX series again, the low cost "fleet phone" that people actually want. It is RIM's best interest to have IT departments go back to the Company phone, and kill the BYOD movement, I read a lot about IT issues and company malware threats that have gone up in Canadian business due to the BYOD policy (including laptops and tablets) So if RIM can launch a home run device like the Curve was at those price points company's wont be looking at the astronomical cost of getting phones people will use anymore.
    Oh, okay. Yeah, I completely forgot the enterprise side of it. But for consumers (in NA), carriers are offering the higher-end BB models for ridiculous prices (AT&T offered the Torch 9810 for $50 w/2-year contract). In regions where contracts and subsidized pricing rules, the low-end devices for consumers seems to be fading. But I suppose it's different for enterprise consumers. I see a lot of Bolds and Torches. I only see 83XX Curves, almost none of the newer ones. The Pearl, though, was a highly popular device and most were happy with it. Maybe something similar?
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    There should be only 2 phones...all touch and a keyboard phone,not 32 flavors.
  12. _StephenBB81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashFlare11 View Post
    Oh, okay. Yeah, I completely forgot the enterprise side of it. But for consumers (in NA), carriers are offering the higher-end BB models for ridiculous prices (AT&T offered the Torch 9810 for $50 w/2-year contract). In regions where contracts and subsidized pricing rules, the low-end devices for consumers seems to be fading. But I suppose it's different for enterprise consumers. I see a lot of Bolds and Torches. I only see 83XX Curves, almost none of the newer ones. The Pearl, though, was a highly popular device and most were happy with it. Maybe something similar?

    Replacement devices, people break that $700 phone, many need to buy that $300 phone to replace it.
    Also Carriers offer Free on contract Lower end phones which is a perfect Student market, and where Entery level Androids are doing awesome, The Carriers subsidize as they have to, if RIM offered excellent Low end Curves, they would push them and wouldn't discount the bolds as much, they discount the bolds because they have to to move them, if you recall at Launch the 9900 was something like $250 on contract with T-Mobile because that is what T-Mobile expected they should get from a New Bold, it wasn't the case, but RIM needs to get back to that case with quality Entery level devices to that their premium devices don't need to be discounted so much, do you see the latest iPhone discounted below $200 on contract? that is because they can demand the premium, RIM needs to get that back AND! still be able to maintain the low end like Android has.
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  13. _StephenBB81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stackberry369 View Post
    There should be only 2 phones...all touch and a keyboard phone,not 32 flavors.
    And that would kill them

    They don't have the brand image to demand the premium so their top tier devices will be discounted heavily keeping their ASP low.

    RIM needs to increase their ASP, and that is done my ensuring they have both high and low end devices so people see the value of paying more for the better ones.

    IF RIM was still a dominate player they could play the 2 device game, but Android would eat their lunch as they do with Apple because they have multiple pricepoints and form factors.
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  14. FlashFlare11's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deRusett View Post
    Replacement devices, people break that $700 phone, many need to buy that $300 phone to replace it.
    Also Carriers offer Free on contract Lower end phones which is a perfect Student market, and where Entery level Androids are doing awesome, The Carriers subsidize as they have to, if RIM offered excellent Low end Curves, they would push them and wouldn't discount the bolds as much, they discount the bolds because they have to to move them, if you recall at Launch the 9900 was something like $250 on contract with T-Mobile because that is what T-Mobile expected they should get from a New Bold, it wasn't the case, but RIM needs to get back to that case with quality Entery level devices to that their premium devices don't need to be discounted so much, do you see the latest iPhone discounted below $200 on contract? that is because they can demand the premium, RIM needs to get that back AND! still be able to maintain the low end like Android has.
    Ah, I see. In other words, RIM needs the lower-end devices to keep the higher-end phones at a more reasonable price (T-Mobile priced the Bold and Torch 9810 out of contention). RIM really also needs to show that BB10 is worth the premium, because the knock against BB7 was that it was pretty much BB6 and wasn't worth the upgrade. Again, like you said, demand the premium. I've never been against the lower-end market, I just wondered why there were so many of them.

    Should processing power be the only thing separating the higher and lower-end devices? Because, to me, that was the only thing which created the price margin (besides little asethetic differences). I mean, there were features the BB7 Curves had (FM radio, NFC) that high-end Torches did not have.
  15. PineappleUnderTheSea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deRusett View Post
    RIM needs to increase their ASP, and that is done my ensuring they have both high and low end devices so people see the value of paying more for the better ones.
    I absolutely agree. RIM's profit margins are not especially great as they were a few years back, which might be due to pressures from carriers to lower the selling price of the pricier sets, but also due to the fact that many people don't see the value in paying for the more expensive sets, and that might be RIM's fault in not differentiating enough.

    The Curve basically has very similar features to the Bolds, so why bother buying a Bold? If everybody buys Curves, then RIM's profits are lower. The Bolds really really need to stand out, and maybe this will happen with BB10.
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  16. _StephenBB81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashFlare11 View Post
    Ah, I see. In other words, RIM needs the lower-end devices to keep the higher-end phones at a more reasonable price (T-Mobile priced the Bold and Torch 9810 out of contention). RIM really also needs to show that BB10 is worth the premium, because the knock against BB7 was that it was pretty much BB6 and wasn't worth the upgrade. Again, like you said, demand the premium. I've never been against the lower-end market, I just wondered why there were so many of them.

    Should processing power be the only thing separating the higher and lower-end devices? Because, to me, that was the only thing which created the price margin (besides little asethetic differences). I mean, there were features the BB7 Curves had (FM radio, NFC) that high-end Torches did not have.
    Well in the past RIM made the Mistake of using 2 different processor manufacturers one being Marvel and one being Qualcomm, so they had different part numbers for each device which physically were different. Also processing power on those chips and radio technology was not at a point to have a single design for all CDMA, and another for All GSM like they do now, RIM waited 18 months too long to cut ties with Marvell in my opinion,

    The difference between high end and low end will be build quality, Premium line sticking to 5x industry standard testing, and Entry level line going to 3x Industry standard testing, as RIM used to do, and possibly still does.
    Also Materials, Premium devices will use Glass for the screen, and metal finishings, Enter level devices will use the lower cost plastics.

    Ideally Entry level devices will make use of the previous generation premium level devices processors, allowing RIM to make larger purchases of components and keep costs down to increase margins, and other internal components would differ such as Speed of FLASH RAM to reduce costs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PineappleUnderTheSea View Post
    I absolutely agree. RIM's profit margins are not especially great as they were a few years back, which might be due to pressures from carriers to lower the selling price of the pricier sets, but also due to the fact that many people don't see the value in paying for the more expensive sets, and that might be RIM's fault in not differentiating enough.

    The Curve basically has very similar features to the Bolds, so why bother buying a Bold? If everybody buys Curves, then RIM's profits are lower. The Bolds really really need to stand out, and maybe this will happen with BB10.

    IF RIM launched the 9900 with FFC, and had Skype and Netflix support it would have been able to demand a premium, Those 3 things missing drastically drove down their value to the buying public, and inturn drove down their purchase price.

    IF RIM launched a Bold 9900 Form factor with BB10, that had the FFC, Skype, Netflix support it would be a major hit, the device is amazing, it just misses the mass consumer appeal by missing these points
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  18. FlashFlare11's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deRusett View Post
    Well in the past RIM made the Mistake of using 2 different processor manufacturers one being Marvel and one being Qualcomm, so they had different part numbers for each device which physically were different. Also processing power on those chips and radio technology was not at a point to have a single design for all CDMA, and another for All GSM like they do now, RIM waited 18 months too long to cut ties with Marvell in my opinion,

    The difference between high end and low end will be build quality, Premium line sticking to 5x industry standard testing, and Entry level line going to 3x Industry standard testing, as RIM used to do, and possibly still does.
    Also Materials, Premium devices will use Glass for the screen, and metal finishings, Enter level devices will use the lower cost plastics.

    Ideally Entry level devices will make use of the previous generation premium level devices processors, allowing RIM to make larger purchases of components and keep costs down to increase margins, and other internal components would differ such as Speed of FLASH RAM to reduce costs.
    Thanks for the explanation! We have so many "experts" saying RIM should only release one or two devices a year when they don't actually know what the lower-end devices offer to RIM in not only emerging markets, but established ones as well. The Qualcomm processors they're rumored to be testing appear to support both CDMA and GSM bands, so that should eliminate the various model numbers for the same device.

    I'm really excited to not only see the new BB10 phones and platform, but also RIM's strategy in getting these new devices into people's hands.
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    I don't think you will see Rim only use qualcomm processors purely because there wouldn't be enough developers familiar with those chipsets to support an entire range along with the bigger issue that hardly any countries outside north america give a damn about cdma and don't want those useless extra radios pushing up the cost of their hardware.

    Another thing to bear in mind is that the omap4 processor used in the playbooks has proven itself to be a good performer, so to avoid themselves being too tied to a single supplier I suspect we will see products featuring both new qc and omap processors. The problem in the past was not that they had two manufacturers, the problems were when one of those was not competitive as far as performance was concerned and that they didn't dump them quickly enough.

    Another thing to bear in mind, the introduction of LTE is probably going to add to the fragmentation of each model (RoW has little demand for LTE or when it does they need different frequencies to those in NA) so they will need to slim the range down as a whole to avoid things being cluttered.

    After the first couple of form factors have turned up, a slider or something different will be the next one and after that we will probably get our first bb10 curve which is almost certainly going to be qwerty+touch and indeed I wouldn't be entirely surprised if we see a final bb7 curve later in the year in time for xmas using that form factor since a bb10 curve would still be 6 months away at that point.
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    Just one all touch device without a physical keyboard. This is the market they are getting destroyed by and where the market is. Sometime after that come out with a BB10 device with a keyboard of some sort, but Apple and Samsung are dominating the market without a keyboard, so this should be RIM's first focus for BB10.
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    Quote Originally Posted by deRusett View Post

    IF RIM launched a Bold 9900 Form factor with BB10, that had the FFC, Skype, Netflix support it would be a major hit, the device is amazing, it just misses the mass consumer appeal by missing these points
    Needs the keyboard pushed down and upper boarder pushed up to get more screen real estate. RIM has too many different screen sizes/resolutions which is retarding development. They need to standardize for the all touch, then come out with a keyboard bold that has same resolution. This will either force a slider, or a longer device, but needs to happen to make things simpler for the developer community IMHO. Love my Bold, but I know that the design's days are numbered because of the way the market is heading.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lnichols View Post
    Needs the keyboard pushed down and upper boarder pushed up to get more screen real estate. RIM has too many different screen sizes/resolutions which is retarding development. They need to standardize for the all touch, then come out with a keyboard bold that has same resolution. This will either force a slider, or a longer device, but needs to happen to make things simpler for the developer community IMHO. Love my Bold, but I know that the design's days are numbered because of the way the market is heading.
    Android does well with 1000's of different resolutions,

    RIM needs to make quality tools to make scalable Apps easy to make, if they make a poorly balanced keyboard phone like the Motorola Droid Pro it will hurt them
    RIM has been surviving because they have such amazing keyboard devices, they can't ignore what has worked for them while trying to capture other markets.

    I would not buy a 9900 that had an elongated screen and the keys moved lower because it would NOT be a joy to type on, you need that space on the bottom for your hand comfort.
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    At launch there will only be 1, in a full year cycle they should only make 3! Full touch screen, a slidernd a Bold!

    That being said I expect 4 to 5.
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    Quote Originally Posted by deRusett View Post
    Android does well with 1000's of different resolutions,

    RIM needs to make quality tools to make scalable Apps easy to make, if they make a poorly balanced keyboard phone like the Motorola Droid Pro it will hurt them
    RIM has been surviving because they have such amazing keyboard devices, they can't ignore what has worked for them while trying to capture other markets.

    I would not buy a 9900 that had an elongated screen and the keys moved lower because it would NOT be a joy to type on, you need that space on the bottom for your hand comfort.
    They sale a lot of devices, but does the fragmentation create a user experience that creates loyalty? My dad loved his DroidX for first few months, then the lockups and other things started and he wants and iPhone now like my mom owns because is just works. I've heard many other Droid owners saying the next device would be Not a Droid because they want something that works without having to tinker. Tinkerers and open source junkies love em, but thats a small segment of the market. Google is getting a lot of first time and low price smartphone buyers, but I don't think they are building a large loyal base like Apple has. Yes RIM needs scalable environment for different resolutions, but its a pain to develop for different aspect ratios. Things will need to be close to same aspect ratio or you'll get a lot of apps that just won't look right IMHO. BB10 needs to be a flawless user experience that just works so they can have a chance to poach Android users, then keep em which will require a lot of apps that work great. Even though I've been using qwerty devices since 2001, and I hate the thought of giving it up, I know I'll have to switch to typing on glass like I am on my Playbook right now at some point on my phone.
  25. _StephenBB81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lnichols View Post
    They sale a lot of devices, but does the fragmentation create a user experience that creates loyalty? My dad loved his DroidX for first few months, then the lockups and other things started and he wants and iPhone now like my mom owns because is just works. I've heard many other Droid owners saying the next device would be Not a Droid because they want something that works without having to tinker. Tinkerers and open source junkies love em, but thats a small segment of the market. Google is getting a lot of first time and low price smartphone buyers, but I don't think they are building a large loyal base like Apple has. Yes RIM needs scalable environment for different resolutions, but its a pain to develop for different aspect ratios. Things will need to be close to same aspect ratio or you'll get a lot of apps that just won't look right IMHO. BB10 needs to be a flawless user experience that just works so they can have a chance to poach Android users, then keep em which will require a lot of apps that work great. Even though I've been using qwerty devices since 2001, and I hate the thought of giving it up, I know I'll have to switch to typing on glass like I am on my Playbook right now at some point on my phone.

    RIM can still have a Just works environment with Multiple resolutions available, as long as the tools are built to accommodate.
    I will not be giving up my keyboard, just as I don't give up my laptop keyboard for a touchscreen tablet, they Keyboard is superior for extended text entry, as long as people require heavy text entry, the keyboard will exist, and I hope RIM keeps that market niche happy with the care they put into that.

    RIM can't be Apple, RIM must be RIM, and they must play the game without losing their identity,
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