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  1. xRuhRohx's Avatar
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    #26  

    Default Re: Extremely Concerned for Blackberry 10

    Something that people are failing to realize...
    Even if an app is not "Active", if it uses push, you will still know what is going on.
    Everything will be going through the hub, no need to have fb, twitter, Gtalk, etc open.
    And when you open an app, its fractions of a second to open and load all content.
    Why do you NEED more than 8 "Active" apps?

    This is perfectly acceptable to me, and I am a "Power User", I can kill a battery in 4 hours ;-)
    And so there are no negative comments about what I know or don't know, I am a software engineer
    and a BlackBerry Dev.
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  2. peter9477's Avatar
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    #27  

    Default Re: Extremely Concerned for Blackberry 10

    Quote Originally Posted by xRuhRohx View Post
    Why do you NEED more than 8 "Active" apps?

    This is perfectly acceptable to me, and I am a "Power User",...
    So, yet another person who believes that since they do not need something, neither does anyone else? :-(

    Once ALL apps save ALL state, so that by reopening them they return precisely to the point where they were, in all respects, then maybe I'll conclude that I don't need to have certain apps stay open, so that when I switch back to them an hour later they are exactly how I left them.

    Also, the comment about "push" is a red herring... you're assuming the only interesting apps are those which function to let you consume incoming social media or messages. How will Battery Guru take advantage of "push" to do anything useful for you? How will an app whose purpose is to monitor and record your location as you travel? That data doesn't arrive via "push", obviously. (Note: I just used up 2 of the 8 positions available, without hardly trying. I could carry on...)

    It's an arbitrary limit, and BB10 shouldn't be subject to arbitrary limits like that. It limits the user, and limits the possibilities for developer innovation.
    Battery Guru for BB10 tracks voltage, power, battery health. (Also on the PlayBook.) White Noise helps you sleep or concentrate.
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    Qaxl (10-27-2012) 
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  3. Qaxl's Avatar
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    Thread AuthorThread Author   #28  

    Default Re: Extremely Concerned for Blackberry 10

    Quote Originally Posted by xRuhRohx View Post
    Something that people are failing to realize...
    Even if an app is not "Active", if it uses push, you will still know what is going on.
    Everything will be going through the hub, no need to have fb, twitter, Gtalk, etc open.
    And when you open an app, its fractions of a second to open and load all content.
    Why do you NEED more than 8 "Active" apps?

    This is perfectly acceptable to me, and I am a "Power User", I can kill a battery in 4 hours ;-)
    And so there are no negative comments about what I know or don't know, I am a software engineer
    and a BlackBerry Dev.
    Do you believe that such limits on what a device can and cant do should be governed by software code and not by hadware ?

    Imagine it like this, you buy a new 500gb hard drive, and someone puts a limit that u can only save 2000 files on it. Thats great if you wanted to fill it with 1080p movies at roughly 10gb each.... but what if u just wanted to store 1mb photos on it ?

    Or

    You download a new browser and it has a limit of just 5 open tabs at any given time.
  4. TheScionicMan's Avatar
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    #29  

    Default Re: Extremely Concerned for Blackberry 10

    Do we know for sure if the 8 app limitation is arbitrary or if it is actually based on a point where the experience starts to degrade?

    In the big scheme of things, would a third pane of active apps be quicker than setting your most important apps to be on the first grid of app thumbnails? Assuming apps relaunch in the same state that they closed, it would be one swipe over and launch instead of swiping down and down and activate?
    "Distrust and caution are the parents of security." -Benjamin Franklin
  5. peter9477's Avatar
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    #30  

    Default Re: Extremely Concerned for Blackberry 10

    TheScionicMan, I wouldn't be at all surprised if, with the current manner in which the running apps shift "mysteriously" around as you maximize and minimize them, the experience will degrade if you have more than 8 apps open. I don't consider that a reason to impose a limit at 8 apps, however... that just means we need improvements in the user's ability to manage open apps, such as by pinning them, configuring the system not to shift them around in a most-recently-used manner, and so on.

    I'll also note that the assumption that apps relaunch in the same state is a huge one. I'll predict that it will be at least two years before that becomes the situation with, say, 90% of even "good" apps (unless one labels all apps which don't do this as "bad") and even then, there's going to be a noticeable difference in the delay between maximizing a running one, and re-opening a closed one.

    To be honest, I don't really expect them to leave the whole experience as it is on the Dev Alpha right now. It's so obvious to me after some real use how bad it is (compared to what it could be with some improvements) that I'm confident the folks at RIM/TAT will have discovered the same thing and have already made design changes, or at least are planning them, to fix it up.
    Battery Guru for BB10 tracks voltage, power, battery health. (Also on the PlayBook.) White Noise helps you sleep or concentrate.
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  6. randmcnally's Avatar
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    #31  

    Default Re: Extremely Concerned for Blackberry 10

    I haven't used BB10 yet, but I know that on my playbook the "X" can be really troublesome from time to time. On a gesture based OS, I think there should be as few soft buttons as possible because frankly I think they're sometimes awful for the experience and the whole point of the gestures is to get rid of soft and hard buttons for the basic UI.

    So my preference would be to get rid of the "X" altogether. There are a couple of implementations I can see:
    1.) Have a translucent circle that sits in the middle of the screen where the four corners of the active frames converge. A long press of about a second would make the circle glow and pulse. At that point you could slide the circle over whichever active frame you want to close and release it. The glowing circle returns to its original position and the active frames closes. A touch anywhere else on the screen deactivates the glowing, pulsing circle. (This could alternatively be used to implement other things like Kevin's pin-a-frame idea.

    2.) The second idea is completely gesture based but may be harder to learn and confusing for ios type users. A swipe down on active frames would bring you to the 2nd page of frames as usual. But a second swipe DOWN -- instead of up -- would bring you back to the first page, creating a one-way rolodex type of paradigm. Swiping UP on a particular frame would close it out, much like the playbook, but would not bring you up to the next page of active tiles . Again, that could be confusing for some users, and would be cumbersome if RIM added more than 2 pages for active frames. But I think it's more streamlined overall and more in-line with the gestures based philosophy.

    More largely, these two options represent a dichotomy that RIM must be struggling with in developing the UI. Option 1 is initially easier to use and more familiar to ios and android users, but option 2 is faster and probably easier to use after the initial learning curve. On one hand RIM doesn't want to alienate people with a OS that is so complicated to use that they simply won't give it a shot. On the other hand, RIM needs to command the market for users who understand that a more complicated OS can be easier and much faster to use once you've gotten over the initial learning curve.
  7. Qaxl's Avatar
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    Thread AuthorThread Author   #32  

    Default Re: Extremely Concerned for Blackberry 10

    On the playbook this issue is verrry small compared to the phones, on the Playbook, at any given time there can be only 2 X's one of the app in the centee, and one of the app on the left, but with bb10 there will be 4 of these to save your fingers from.

    On the other hand i don't think we will see RIM doing anything about it, because lets face it, it make closing apps easy, intuitive, and super fast.

    But i do agree that RIM should do a little more with the Active Frames.
    The opening and closing are pretty straight forward and would be great for basic users, but a hidden layer of functionality for the advanced user would be much appreciated. Whether they implement this using a Longpress on the Active Frames or a Menu button on each Frame ( maybe use the small icon that precedes the app name in the bar below the active frames ? ) or use any other way to accomplish adding this advanced layer of functionality, I believe it is very important that it should be there in BB OS 10.1 if not at launch

    Also i wish there would he support for themes in the future of BlackBerry 10, and that theme support would extend to the Active Frames, like having a rolodex type flow like mentioned in the second point in the above post could be applied in a theme..

    Also i believe in the future there should be an option to resize the active frames, so we could have an active frame spanning across the width of the screen taking up place of 2 current frames, useful for a 5-7 day weather forecast.... Or a an active frame spanning the length of the screen, useful for keeping a to-do list or a playlist or an open bbm chat.

    Basically i want them to give the user more control of how the UI looks, because every person is different and customization is a very important feature, be it in the way the software looks, or the way it behaves.
  8. Guignards's Avatar
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    #33  

    Default Re: Extremely Concerned for Blackberry 10

    This is just my opinion, but i believe that it will make sense to anyone on here that might be familiar with any of the other common OS's out there (android, iOS and Windows Phone)
    All options suggested to replace the Close Active tile "x" have already been implimented into previous OS's
    Press and hold to display red "x" = iOS and WP7/8
    Press and hold to be able to drag to trash can = Android, and Background running apps are closed with a swipe in the task manager. (Not sure about newer ICS and Jelly bean OS tho)

    The press and hold feature will be nothing new to a user, as this is also how you move around icons in your app pages and this is univeral across almost all devices.

    Think WebOS; press and hold to activate, tap to select, swipe up to close, tap else where to return/ or no active apps left, return to initial state.

    Just my 2 cents
  9. Qaxl's Avatar
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    Thread AuthorThread Author   #34  

    Default

    Hey guys,
    I just posted a reply to a thread asking whether an app could be closed without going to the Active Frames homescreen.

    Basically what i suggested was, that there could be a gesture to accomplish this task, similar to the gesture to enter the Hub. Swipe up from the bottom and instead of going right, you keep going to the straight to the top to close the app.

    And with similar reasoning i realized my basic concern about app switching could be taken care of...

    Swipe up from bottom Bezel and go Left, this would bring up the Next app from the Right side of the screen. But it would wait a second like in Playbook to see if u want to scroll further and select any other app.

    So the Peek Gesture would basically be able to branch out into 3 more gestures. Right to Pull the Hub from the Left, Up to close the current App, and Left to Pull the Next App from the right and allow for app switching.

    New Thread Covering this in detail With Pictures
    Last edited by Qaxl; 11-18-2012 at 09:04 AM. Reason: Added Link to New Thread
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  10. mrmartis's Avatar
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    #35  

    Default

    I LOVE IT THIS IS VERY SMART. I was worried about the same thing, how to close an app without having to first go to the active frame then close it. Even the swipe up and left for playbook style mutli-tasking is awesome.
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  11. peter9477's Avatar
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    #36  

    Default

    Waking up this old thread to point to a section in the middle of this video, where Peter F Mayer is showing app switching on the home screen. He clearly makes several mistakes demonstrating exactly the sort of confusion I warned about earlier in this thread, sometimes tapping in the upper left when he should have tapped upper right, other times the other way around.

    Edit: it doesn't jump to the location I wanted, so you can manually jump to 3:30 to see what I'm talking about. It's a bit subtle: at 3:40 I believe he meant to tap at upper right but re-opened the map app he'd just minimized, then at 3:44 he hesitates as he's about tap at upper right mistakenly, when he wanted to maximize the map app again and it had now moved to the upper right.

    Battery Guru for BB10 tracks voltage, power, battery health. (Also on the PlayBook.) White Noise helps you sleep or concentrate.
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  12. Goint's Avatar
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    #37  

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    I would be happy to only have 8 apps only. I constantly find android running services in the background draining my data and battery.
  13. KasukeSadiki's Avatar
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    #38  

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheScionicMan View Post
    Do we know for sure if the 8 app limitation is arbitrary or if it is actually based on a point where the experience starts to degrade?

    In the big scheme of things, would a third pane of active apps be quicker than setting your most important apps to be on the first grid of app thumbnails? Assuming apps relaunch in the same state that they closed, it would be one swipe over and launch instead of swiping down and down and activate?
    Or even having them on ANY page of the app grid, since you can access any page instantly by tapping the corresponding icon on the bottom of the home page.
  14. #39  

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    I hope we can pin apps to the top to prevent them from moving around (and eventually getting closed when they fall to the 8th spot and a 9th app is opened). If not at launch, some short time after it.
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  15. TomJasper's Avatar
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    #40  

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    ZZzzzzzzzzz, old threads make me sleepy.
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  16. mikeo007's Avatar
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    #41  

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    Quote Originally Posted by diegonei View Post
    I hope we can pin apps to the top to prevent them from moving around (and eventually getting closed when they fall to the 8th spot and a 9th app is opened). If not at launch, some short time after it.
    Not possible at this point, but it would be a welcome last minute feature to see Jan 30.
  17. BBThemes's Avatar
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    #42  

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter9477 View Post
    Waking up this old thread to point to a section in the middle of this video, where Peter F Mayer is showing app switching on the home screen. He clearly makes several mistakes demonstrating exactly the sort of confusion I warned about earlier in this thread, sometimes tapping in the upper left when he should have tapped upper right, other times the other way around.

    Edit: it doesn't jump to the location I wanted, so you can manually jump to 3:30 to see what I'm talking about. It's a bit subtle: at 3:40 I believe he meant to tap at upper right but re-opened the map app he'd just minimized, then at 3:44 he hesitates as he's about tap at upper right mistakenly, when he wanted to maximize the map app again and it had now moved to the upper right.

    While i can see your point, the last opened app is always top left, theres complete logic to it, and actually DOES happen in the current BBOS.

    on a BB hold down the menu key for the app switcher, note the positions of the open icons, now select anything but the top left, now hold down the menu key to open the app switcher again and boom!! the app you just chose is top left, and if you actually use the device for a while you find they move across based on when you last closed them. So not actually `new` in that sense, and follows the way BBOS did it.

    Thorsten said ZED 10. deal with it
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  18. web99's Avatar
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    #43  

    Default Extremely Concerned for Blackberry 10

    What's with all these "Concerned for BB10" threads? My guess is that with only 10 days to launch, the device is already locked down with no new changes going in. Most likely, the only changes right now would be some last minute polishing up. It's no time to talk about possible UI or design changes as the horse has already left the barn.

    The RIM development team I am sure has put a lot of time and effort into the device and surely it has gone through some extensive testing. Right now I am thinking about the launch.

    Sent from my BlackBerry 9800 using Tapatalk
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  19. peter9477's Avatar
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    #44  

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    Quote Originally Posted by BBThemes View Post
    While i can see your point, the last opened app is always top left, theres complete logic to it, and actually DOES happen in the current BBOS.
    Well, that's not an outstanding recommendation for it then, since I can't find my apps in BBOS either. ;-)

    Seriously though, logic doesn't have anything to do with this. People don't react based on logic, they react based on the way their brain works. Maybe some people will find this intuitive, but I know some will not and do not. Looks like maybe they're all named Peter, but I'm confident in my claims from a usability design perspective that this is not an optimal design, at least for some people.

    I will adjust to it, over time... it's just that the basic interaction with the home screen shouldn't be something that needs any real adjustment from people. Anyway, it will be whatever it will be, in the first incarnation, and if I'm right about it being an issue for enough people, then it will be different later on....
    Battery Guru for BB10 tracks voltage, power, battery health. (Also on the PlayBook.) White Noise helps you sleep or concentrate.
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  20. peter9477's Avatar
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    #45  

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    Quote Originally Posted by web99 View Post
    What's with all these "Concerned for BB10" threads?
    It's an older thread, from long before there were only 10 days left. I added to it because a video that added actual data to the discussion showed up. This thread has been reviewed by members of the responsible design group in RIM, and if it had any merit in their eyes, then the extra info may also prove useful to them in possible future design changes. Nobody's suggesting they change anything in the short term, so this isn't just another of "all these 'Concerned for BB10 threads' " that you're concerned about. Besides, if you knew my history here you'd know I'm the last person who would have any concern about how well BB10 will do. ;-)
    Battery Guru for BB10 tracks voltage, power, battery health. (Also on the PlayBook.) White Noise helps you sleep or concentrate.
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  21. BBThemes's Avatar
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    #46  

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter9477 View Post
    Well, that's not an outstanding recommendation for it then, since I can't find my apps in BBOS either. ;-)
    well in BBOS you hold down the menu button, so it ent that hard.

    also what else follows the `last opened` paradigm? iOS, Android and windows for the PC when you alt+tab. so lets not make this any deal when its just not.

    Thorsten said ZED 10. deal with it
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  22. peter9477's Avatar
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    #47  

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    Quote Originally Posted by BBThemes View Post
    well in BBOS you hold down the menu button, so it ent that hard.

    also what else follows the `last opened` paradigm? iOS, Android and windows for the PC when you alt+tab. so lets not make this any deal when its just not.
    I wouldn't hold the Alt-Tab thing up as any paragon of virtue either. It's a hideous design and I often end up cycling through the whole thing, having missed the app I wanted. And yes, I know you can do Alt-Shift-Tab to back up, but no one who actually understands usability would ever propose that as an actual solution.

    Anyway, my background includes usability design engineering, and I'm just going to go with my experience in that area and say what I believe. You can disagree (and obviously do) but please don't disrespect my position on the matter (the "lets not make this any deal" thing seems patronizing to me). I never asked you to consider making changes in the design, just RIM.
    Battery Guru for BB10 tracks voltage, power, battery health. (Also on the PlayBook.) White Noise helps you sleep or concentrate.
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  23. screechop's Avatar
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    #48  

    Default Extremely Concerned for Blackberry 10

    you can pin apps to a position. I saw this in a video from back in the fall. he used the option of always wanting bbm open, and he pinned it to the top right. everything still shifted when closed and opened, but bbm stayed the whole time in the top right.

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  24. peter9477's Avatar
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    #49  

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    Quote Originally Posted by screechop View Post
    you can pin apps to a position. I saw this in a video from back in the fall. he used the option of always wanting bbm open, and he pinned it to the top right. everything still shifted when closed and opened, but bbm stayed the whole time in the top right.
    I would love to see a link to that video... Never heard anyone else ever mention it before.
    Battery Guru for BB10 tracks voltage, power, battery health. (Also on the PlayBook.) White Noise helps you sleep or concentrate.
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  25. calicocat2010's Avatar
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    #50  

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    Yeah show us the video. "show me the....VIDEO!!!" Hehe readjustment line for Jerry McGuire Movie.
    I wait for the future...to COME back to BlackBerry!
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