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  1. brian_peterson's Avatar
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    Default Ding dong BIS is Dead!!!

    I don't know about you but I am ecstatic that they killed off that terrible BIS garbage.

    Why was it garbage:
    -Browsing was terribly slow
    -Compression dogged any video streaming
    -Weird Service Book problems
    -Crappy POP3 email support (now you can refresh your pop3 with a swipe, without waiting for that 15 minutes NOC interval)
    -ActiveSync Support
    -I don't need a plan to use the device. If I want a "iPod touch" all I have to do is use Wifi, and the device works minus phone calls and texting
    -My email keeps working when the NOC goes down. No more yearly "OMG RIM SUCKS"
    -Programmers don't need to write weird detection logic in code (Do I have BIS, do I have BES, does their carrier allow direct connections). You know those weird setup detection wizards in apps! Now they are gone!!!
    -No more weird attachment limits
    -They don't try and mess with my HTML email
    -No more lame download limits
    -Downloads start right away... Not waiting for all that lag for the NOC to wake up

    Bottom line, anybody who thinks BIS getting killed off is a bad thing is crazy. Killing of BIS will be one of the most important things to make BB10 perform the way everyone wants! Fast, speedy and without limits!
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  2. Jtaylor1986's Avatar
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    I'm not sure anyone is really all that clear on exactly what it did before and what it does now. For instance, is BBM and email still going through the NOC and being encrypted? I have no idea....
  3. #3  

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    Don't forget the ability to insert a new sim card and have data right away! No more asking your carrier to push settings and register BIS and what not. Also, you now have the ability to use sim cards from an Android/iOS device and have data as the plans are the same
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  4. brian_peterson's Avatar
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    I agree most people did not understand... My point was listing the bad things of BIS... And they are many!
  5. cjcampbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jtaylor1986 View Post
    I'm not sure anyone is really all that clear on exactly what it did before and what it does now. For instance, is BBM and email still going through the NOC and being encrypted? I have no idea....
    Apparently BBM runs through the NOC but emails do not... and besides, there was never end to end encryption with BIS. That's a BES thing. Somehow everyone just assumed that it applied to the consumer side of things too.
  6. brian_peterson's Avatar
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    I agree that BIS was seen as this magical thing... It annoys me to see threads complaining about it's demise. They should be CELEBRATING it. It caused so many problems for consumers it's not even funny!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jtaylor1986 View Post
    I'm not sure anyone is really all that clear on exactly what it did before and what it does now. For instance, is BBM and email still going through the NOC and being encrypted? I have no idea....
    Apparently BlackBerry Messenger (BBM) traffic is still routed through the Network Operations Centre (NOC) providing encryption via a shared public key for all BlackBerry 10 smartphones. As for email, only email sent/received via BlackBerry Enterprise Service 10 (BES10) is routed through the NOC on generic data plans (the old BES data plan does not work with newer devices) and has the same level of encryption as enjoyed by BlackBerry OS 5/6/7 smartphone users with a BES data plan connected to BlackBerry Enterprise Server 5 (Full Edition) or with BIS/BES data plan connected to BlackBerry Enterprise Server 5 (Express Edition). If you do not use a BES10 then email is subject to whatever in-transit encryption scheme is offered by the email provider / server.
    farmwersteve and Ben1232 like this.
  8. b320's Avatar
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    Legacy BIS is dead (as far as QNX-based products including the PlayBook, BlackBerry 10 and Z10 / Q10, are concerned but still fully supported for devices running BlackBerry OS 7.x and below), long live modern BIS (BBM platform, BlackBerry World, BlackBerry ID based services).
    Last edited by b320; 02-10-2013 at 09:47 PM.
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  9. SnoozerBold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brian_peterson View Post
    I agree most people did not understand... My point was listing the bad things of BIS... And they are many!
    People were complaining about those things you listed constantly before bb10 was released. But now that it's out people have forgotten the things they hated. Damned if you do and Damned if you don't lol
    Great list to remind people by the way.
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  10. dorbit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brian_peterson View Post
    I don't know about you but I am ecstatic that they killed off that terrible BIS garbage.

    Why was it garbage:
    -Browsing was terribly slow
    -Compression dogged any video streaming
    -Weird Service Book problems
    -Crappy POP3 email support (now you can refresh your pop3 with a swipe, without waiting for that 15 minutes NOC interval)
    -ActiveSync Support
    -I don't need a plan to use the device. If I want a "iPod touch" all I have to do is use Wifi, and the device works minus phone calls and texting
    -My email keeps working when the NOC goes down. No more yearly "OMG RIM SUCKS"
    -Programmers don't need to write weird detection logic in code (Do I have BIS, do I have BES, does their carrier allow direct connections). You know those weird setup detection wizards in apps! Now they are gone!!!
    -No more weird attachment limits
    -They don't try and mess with my HTML email
    -No more lame download limits
    -Downloads start right away... Not waiting for all that lag for the NOC to wake up

    Bottom line, anybody who thinks BIS getting killed off is a bad thing is crazy. Killing of BIS will be one of the most important things to make BB10 perform the way everyone wants! Fast, speedy and without limits!
    Well, then call me crazy. If I was looking for all those glorious characteristics/features I would have had an iPhone. Seriously, what is BB10's advantage over iOS?
  11. jstarett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvalidUser0510 View Post
    Don't forget the ability to insert a new sim card and have data right away! No more asking your carrier to push settings and register BIS and what not. Also, you now have the ability to use sim cards from an Android/iOS device and have data as the plans are the same
    You could do that now anyways... I know there are a few people on here that posted where they swapped their sims with android's, berry's and iphones!
    Bold (9000) | Torch (9800) | Torch (9810) | Z10 OS: 10.2.1.537
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  12. cjcampbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorbit View Post
    Well, then call me crazy. If I was looking for all those glorious characteristics/features I would have had an iPhone. Seriously, what is BB10's advantage over iOS?
    How about it's faster, it can really multitask, it has a swappable battery, it has expandable storage, it has the best on screen keyboard in the industry, It has better messaging management, it has BBM Video with screen share......Really aside from apps, what does iOS have that BB doesn't?
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  13. SirJes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjcampbell View Post
    How about it's faster, it can really multitask, it has a swappable battery, it has expandable storage, it has the best on screen keyboard in the industry, It has better messaging management, it has BBM Video with screen share......Really aside from apps, what does iOS have that BB doesn't?
    ^^this
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  14. ssbtech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brian_peterson View Post
    I don't know about you but I am ecstatic that they killed off that terrible BIS garbage.

    Why was it garbage:
    -Browsing was terribly slow
    Or perhaps the phones were just slow.

    Quote Originally Posted by brian_peterson View Post
    Compression dogged any video streaming
    First thing we all need on on a work phone is streaming video.

    Quote Originally Posted by brian_peterson View Post
    Weird Service Book problems
    What's a service book? Never had problems here...

    Quote Originally Posted by brian_peterson View Post
    -Crappy POP3 email support (now you can refresh your pop3 with a swipe, without waiting for that 15 minutes NOC interval)
    Now it's even crappier and if your POP3 ISP requires you to be connected to their network to send messages, you can't send mail through that account if connected to the cellular network

    Quote Originally Posted by brian_peterson View Post
    ActiveSync Support
    That could have easily been enabled on BIS phones.

    Quote Originally Posted by brian_peterson View Post
    I don't need a plan to use the device. If I want a "iPod touch" all I have to do is use Wifi, and the device works minus phone calls and texting
    So buy an iPod touch and not a phone if you don't want a plan?

    Quote Originally Posted by brian_peterson View Post
    My email keeps working when the NOC goes down. No more yearly "OMG RIM SUCKS"
    With the exception of one, these outages are few and far between.


    Now I'm just too bored to bother with the rest of your "faults".

    Killing off BIS sucks.
    -You don't get data compression that can save you valuable money when you go over your data limits or are roaming
    -You get **** poor email management without BIS supporting POP3 (device gets cluttered with emails you don't want because you can't set up filters on the BIS account, deleting messages deletes them from the server and makes them impossible for anoyher computer checking the account to retrieve)
    -Parents loved the "social" plans because it saved them money and their kids could text all they want - now those are impossible to set up on a BlackBerrry with no BIS.

    Everyone says non-BIS plans are cheaper. I wonder, if I upgrade my 9800 to a Z10, will I get my data plan for $5/mo less? Doubt it.

    BIS was also a massive revenue generator for BlackBerry. If they didn't have it, they likely wouldn't have gotten through the last few years.
    BlackBerry Z10 on Bell Canada
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  15. brian_peterson's Avatar
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    1) BIS slowed down downloading the page... Before it even started to render... Trust us developers when we tell you BIS was a HUGE network latency bottle-neck
    2) My BlackBerry was never for business, it was for my own personal use for fun. That's what the Pearl was all about and got me hooked. This kind of thinking is why BlackBerry has been tanking for years. Thank goodness they figured it out!
    3) Many people had Service Book problems... TONS OF PEOPLE... Some apps even would not work if you did not have the service books. Verizon even tried to block service books to keep you using texts, although that practice has stopped.
    4) Setup a gmail account, and you can setup "send as"... Most ISP's allow for authentication of their SMTP server. My backwater ISP in the middle of nowhere allows for that. I suspect you are talking about a very small percentage of people
    5) If BIS could have supported ActiveSync as easily as you described how come they never did it? It's the same thing with why the BlackBerry OS was so laggy, and rebooted every time you installed an App. Old BBOS had limits, and they hit them long ago.
    6) Not everyone wants to pay a monthly fee for data... It's nice to know you can do that now. Pop in a SIM... Don't get data... and be on Wifi... It's a nice feature for some.
    7) Those outages you speak of were some of the most damaging disasters to the BlackBerry brand. I am glad they will be over now, for the most part.

    Your complaints:
    1) Thank goodness they are no longer compressing data. Honestly data compression algorithms they used did not save that much data... Their OS sucked so bad, and their BIS limitations were so bad that you never could use your data in the first place... That's WHY BlackBerry's used less data.
    2) That's total BS. It's way better.
    3) Parents should not get kids smartphones... It's like giving a kid a live hand grenade...
    4) In the USA we did not have BlackBerry discounts. Sometimes it would cost more to have one.
    5) Actually they would have sold more devices. If they would have had QNX and no BIS all these years... Man oh man BlackBerry would have stayed on top.

    Bottom line old BBOS and BIS were the primary reason for their demise... They got the message... Sounds like some of their old time users have not...
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  16. b320's Avatar
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    In reply to post by ssbtech:

    The bottom line is that it NOT make sense for BlackBerry to continue providing BIS email services for strategic reasons. Please consider the following points:

    1. After BlackBerry helped carriers drive smartphone adoption in mid-2000s, carriers came to disfavor BlackBerry because BIS + legacy BlackBerry devices DID NOT drive data revenues as much as data-hungry devices like the iPhone and Android. If this was not a factor, You would not see Sprint signing contracts guaranteeing Apple $15.5 billion in revenue to just be able to sell the iPhone.

    2. Carriers control mobile phone distribution and, more importantly, network access, especially in the most lucrative Western markets (read North America + Europe). Carriers prioritize devices that are "hot" and "trendy" (iPhone line, Galaxy lines, etc). Neither the media nor the public consider BIS email services as something that makes a device hot. Show me one review from past three years that states that a BlackBerry is a must have *because* of BIS email services.

    3. Carriers absolutely HATE paying BlackBerry for BIS. This revenue has been getting squeezed ever since late 2000s and would go away sooner or later (see BlackBerry's statements to investors from the past few years). If BlackBerry continued offering BIS email, it would be sooner or later be provided at a significant loss.

    4. While many people say that they're willing to pay extra for BlackBerry services, when you ask them to their money where they're mouth is, they behave differently. Not having to pay for BES with carriers was a big reason people switched to devices allowing business email access on cheaper non-BES plans just as many institutions switched from BES to Microsoft Exchange ActiveSync when Microsoft started throwing in Exchange ActiveSync licensing for free. In the US, T-Mobile and Virgin Mobile Prepaid both charge extra monthly charge for BIS on top of data plan fee. Guess what? In the past 2 years, BlackBerry devices have completely GONE AWAY as devices marketed for prepaid by either of those carriers in lieu of various low-end (and lower quality) Android devices, even though BlackBerry has been making in-roads all over the world by marketing BlackBerry 7 devices in markets where where low-to-mid-range smartphone growth was key.

    5. In most cases, Carriers provide terrible support for it (i.e. blaming BlackBerry, lying about supported features, making access to BIS email account troubleshooting very difficult). This put BlackBerry in unenviable position of poor support when things are going wrong but not being able to help BlackBerry users directly.

    BIS email became a losing proposition very quickly as most smartphone users accepted the less sophisticated email services offered on iOS, Android and other platforms and as bigger data revenue, not more efficient data transmission, became the overriding concern for carriers.

    If you feel that BIS email is a must have, tell your carrier that you MUST have it and that you want them to offer it. BlackBerry listens to carriers and if carriers hear demand for BIS email, they will demand it from BlackBerry. However, I'm willing to bet that in most cases, your carrier has trained its staff to respond by trying to sell you on switching to an Android device or an iPhone instead as the profits are better there for the carrier.
    Omnitech and lotuslanderz like this.
  17. Morten's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvalidUser0510 View Post
    Don't forget the ability to insert a new sim card and have data right away! No more asking your carrier to push settings and register BIS and what not. Also, you now have the ability to use sim cards from an Android/iOS device and have data as the plans are the same
    Not so quick...

    This only works for some carriers, others still won't allow any user-set APN settings....

    So even though the devices work without a BIS plan, the carriers can still force certain plans upon you...
  18. n8ter#AC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjcampbell View Post
    How about it's faster, it can really multitask, it has a swappable battery, it has expandable storage, it has the best on screen keyboard in the industry, It has better messaging management, it has BBM Video with screen share......Really aside from apps, what does iOS have that BB doesn't?
    That's all your opinion.

    Apps are what makes BB10's weaknesses even more glaring. When you have the app support iOS has, your weaker points are pretty much a moot point because there are clear advantages to picking that platform.

    Faster, than an iPhone 5? That's a bit stretching it. Really Multitask until you open the 10th app and it starts punting others off the list? Swappable battery isn't an issue when your phone doesn't have mid-tier Android device battery life. Keyboard is totally subjective. BB10 doesn't manage messages any better than Android, iOS, or Windows Phone. BBM Video has been on iOS since 2010 - it's called FaceTime, and it's even easier to use. Screen Sharing is niche and the only people looking forward to that are IT support personnel to easily fix device issues (provided the device can run well enough to use the feature at that time). BBM Voice most iOS users will simply use Facebook Messenger or Skype - both of which have free VoIP calling and neither of which can be blocked by a carrier as they aren't built-in features.

    However... iOS does have the apps and that means my ridiculously huge OneNote notebooks aren't useless on that platform, for example (don't mention EverNote, as it is useless compared to OneNote). It means apps that I've grown to depend on like Coach's Eye, YouTube, Tapatalk, Snapseed, Google Reader, SkyDrive, Facebook Messenger, OfficeSuite Pro (Connects to SkyDrive) or high quality equivalents (like iWorks instead of OfficeSuite, for example) exist there.

    This is not even mentioning the terrible quality of some apps that are there - like the Facebook and Twitter apps.

    I'm completely ignoring games, as well, especially since iOS tends to get more high-end exclusives than any other platform.
  19. n8ter#AC's Avatar
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    First thing we all need on on a work phone is streaming video.
    What if you want to run a Conferencing app like WebEx?

    What if you want to watch training videos that are work related, like for a new Office or Windows version being rolled out?

    Your views are short-sighted and your whining is becoming unbearable.

    Off you go.
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  20. Morten's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by n8ter#AC View Post
    Faster, than an iPhone 5? That's a bit stretching it.
    What is "faster"? Is it how many bit can be modified on the screen per second, is it how fast it can render a web page Correct, or is it how fast you can get things done? It is all subjective.


    Quote Originally Posted by n8ter#AC View Post
    Really Multitask until you open the 10th app and it starts punting others off the list?
    QNX can multitask as much as you want to throw at it, but of course it all require some computing cycles from the CPU, and it also require juice from the battery, so the number of apps currently "allowed" to multitask - is a trade-off between many factors. How many apps do you Multitask on your iPhones?
    I'm not talking about switching between apps - but Multitask?


    Quote Originally Posted by n8ter#AC View Post
    Swappable battery isn't an issue when your phone doesn't have mid-tier Android device battery life.
    And how many hours of use do You get from your iPhone5?


    Quote Originally Posted by n8ter#AC View Post
    Screen Sharing is niche and the only people looking forward to that are IT support personnel to easily fix device issues
    Wrong! I use it to show my family pictures when I'm on the go... no IT support involved

    Quote Originally Posted by n8ter#AC View Post
    most iOS users will simply use Facebook Messenger or Skype - both of which have free VoIP calling and neither of
    which can be blocked by a carrier as they aren't built-in features.
    You must have been sleeping in class. Carriers ARE blocking Voip services - something regulators see all the time all over the globe.


    Quote Originally Posted by n8ter#AC View Post
    It means apps that I've grown to depend on like Coach's Eye, YouTube, Tapatalk, Snapseed, Google Reader, SkyDrive, Facebook Messenger, OfficeSuite Pro (Connects to SkyDrive).
    That is apps which You have grown to depend on, I am sure that other people depend on other apps. I don't need any special app for YouTube, I use gNewsReader for my Z10 which is a decent Google News Reader - and the rest on your list - I don't really care about at all..



    Quote Originally Posted by n8ter#AC View Post
    That's all your opinion.
    You said it - it's all Your opinion

    and thank God for all the choices we have - not having to stick with one brand or one device - instead we use what we have to use to get the job done.
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  21. Morten's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by n8ter#AC View Post
    What if you want to run a Conferencing app like WebEx?
    Doing it already - the BB10 WebEx app is very good


    Quote Originally Posted by n8ter#AC View Post
    Your views are short-sighted and your whining is becoming unbearable.
    Off you go.
    I totally agree - why are you here?
  22. Snipperdo17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by n8ter#AC View Post
    That's all your opinion.

    Apps are what makes BB10's weaknesses even more glaring. When you have the app support iOS has, your weaker points are pretty much a moot point because there are clear advantages to picking that platform.

    Faster, than an iPhone 5? That's a bit stretching it. Really Multitask until you open the 10th app and it starts punting others off the list? Swappable battery isn't an issue when your phone doesn't have mid-tier Android device battery life. Keyboard is totally subjective. BB10 doesn't manage messages any better than Android, iOS, or Windows Phone. BBM Video has been on iOS since 2010 - it's called FaceTime, and it's even easier to use. Screen Sharing is niche and the only people looking forward to that are IT support personnel to easily fix device issues (provided the device can run well enough to use the feature at that time). BBM Voice most iOS users will simply use Facebook Messenger or Skype - both of which have free VoIP calling and neither of which can be blocked by a carrier as they aren't built-in features.

    However... iOS does have the apps and that means my ridiculously huge OneNote notebooks aren't useless on that platform, for example (don't mention EverNote, as it is useless compared to OneNote). It means apps that I've grown to depend on like Coach's Eye, YouTube, Tapatalk, Snapseed, Google Reader, SkyDrive, Facebook Messenger, OfficeSuite Pro (Connects to SkyDrive) or high quality equivalents (like iWorks instead of OfficeSuite, for example) exist there.

    This is not even mentioning the terrible quality of some apps that are there - like the Facebook and Twitter apps.

    I'm completely ignoring games, as well, especially since iOS tends to get more high-end exclusives than any other platform.
    Sorry but you're off your rocker if you think the others manage messages as well as bb10. Screen sharing is a very nice feature that many people would have a use for. And yes, it is as fast as the iphone 5. I have both and it is every bit as fast as the i5. Most people would much rather have a swappable battery than not, just for the option. Keyboard is light years better than iOS because it is bigger. And finally multitasking, you talk about the 10th app getting punted? iOS doesn't even allow any other app to run in the background besides music. Don't even try to argue that one.
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  23. cjcampbell's Avatar
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    I would have responded but there is no need. The previous two did a good job. My point stands.... appart from apps, what does iOS do what BB10 doesn't. I won't argue that apps are important for a lot of people and many rely on some specific ones, but, well, many don't, myself included.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snipperdo17 View Post
    Sorry but you're off your rocker if you think the others manage messages as well as bb10. Screen sharing is a very nice feature that many people would have a use for. And yes, it is as fast as the iphone 5. I have both and it is every bit as fast as the i5. Most people would much rather have a swappable battery than not, just for the option. Keyboard is light years better than iOS because it is bigger. And finally multitasking, you talk about the 10th app getting punted? iOS doesn't even allow any other app to run in the background besides music. Don't even try to argue that one.
    The idea of speed is great but what are we talking about exactly. Is there anything out there now to give us a clearly quantifiable speed test. So one device loads an app .5 second faster or one device can install 51 apps at the same time vs. 3. The average user doesn’t care about these things. And even if they did, the next upgrade cycle will make it all kind of mute anyway.

    With respect to the overall experience (inclusive of apps), then I think the established players have the advantage here. So items like screen share is nice, but if iOS/Android users want it, they’ll get it. The idea of a swappable battery is nice but when you don’t have to do battery pulls then what’s the point.

    The BB10 Keyboard is great, but how long until iOS updates theirs and Android (or swiftkey) replicate? Screen share is avail on Cisco... device agnostic...

    Multitasking, really.... I guess that ties back to being able to replace the battery.

    To bring this back on topic, Blackberry killed when email wasn’t secure (BIS/BES) and instant chat wasn’t widely available on mobile devices (BBM). Active synch puts all other devices on par w/ an out of the box BB device and iMessage, Whatsapp, wechat, IMO, FB Chat... It’s a different world now... faster nibble players (app makers)... the barriers to entry is ridiculously low for anything (sans balance) that BB10 offers.
  25. dorbit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorbit View Post
    Well, then call me crazy. If I was looking for all those glorious characteristics/features I would have had an iPhone. Seriously, what is BB10's advantage over iOS
    Quote Originally Posted by cjcampbell View Post
    How about it's faster, it can really multitask, it has a swappable battery, it has expandable storage, it has the best on screen keyboard in the industry, It has better messaging management, it has BBM Video with screen share......Really aside from apps, what does iOS have that BB doesn't?
    Well, I'm not going to make a case for iOS and the whole Apple ecosystem, but from my perspective, and I would guess millions of other Blackberry faithful, I preferred Blackberry with BIS. Like many, I use it primarily for business and I travel. I'll be keeping my OS7 device, because it's a solid communication device with a great battery and is economical. For all those that are pointing out the weaknesses of BIS, the Blackberry faithful have been strong supporters of it, including the Crackberry gang. Now that it's gone in BB10, it may become more competitive to Android and iOS, and may even get some converts from those platforms (I won't speculate how many), but it will lose many many faithful. I know BBM will continue to pass through the NOC, but too bad they couldn't have maintained their compression algorithms and added email there as well.
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