[eve6er69]

Not here to argue with you all just want you to do some reading but you guys probably won't, even tho the proof is in the pudding plain as day.

RIM quietly buys Slipstream Data for compression technology


As you were kids, oh and you can bypass the noc and just use your carrier web but it's limited to app usage or something of the sorts.

Thank you for that info. I didn't read nor pay attention when I hear the info about slipstream, for some reason I thought they were just another ui development company.

So in short when fusion takes place and they migrate off the noc slipstream will still compress the data to use like the noc does now. If I read that right? Correct me of I'm wrong.

[eve6er69]

Sorry to burst your bubble...and jump in mid-thread, but ALL carrier data in & out from a Blackberry goes through the NOC and is compressed....INCLUDING Pandora.

Thank you. You cannot have just a data plan on a berry because you have to pay the bis or bes which travels all data wether it be emails or pandora through the noc.

I just had a simple question and turned into a bash fest.

[alby4ever]

Sorry to burst your bubble...and jump in mid-thread, but ALL carrier data in & out from a Blackberry goes through the NOC and is compressed....INCLUDING Pandora.

Thank you. You cannot have just a data plan on a berry because you have to pay the bis or bes which travels all data wether it be emails or pandora through the noc.

I just had a simple question and turned into a bash fest.

Did you NOT READ M.Rizk's explanation of HOW BIS WORKS? Typical intentional ignorance by BB fanboys. Just because something goes through the NOC doesn't mean it's compressed.

M.Rizk:
"Panadora or any other streaming services is not compressed by a single KB! You guys won't feel that at the US and Canada, because your carriers usually give you like 1 GB to be used in any device not just BlackBerry and adds like a 10$ access fee to the NOC. But in the Middle East BlackBerries got a special separate plans which includes no Streaming just PURE USAGE OVER BlackBerry.net APN which compresses only Webpages, downloads, Youtube videos on PlayBook only.

----------------
Summary:
What RIM can compress:
Everything running through BlackBerry.net APN as:
Web pages
HTML5
Downloads
Pictures
Youtube running on the PlayBook
Emails & Attachments

What RIM can't compress:
Everything that requires WAP2 Transport using Generic APN (as here gprs.qtel APN for Qatar Qtel):
Youtube over BlackBerry Smartphones
Panadora, other radios
RTSP:// protocol
VoIP
Data through Mobile Hotspot

So Yes, the statement posted by the OP is incorrect, having BlackBerry is not what makes Pandora streams for less data unless the app has a feature to stream lower quality music which will be something from Pandora end not RIM's. I wish we see the compression available on BB10 devices as carriers here in the Middle East still respect us as BlackBerry users by Unlimited BlackBerry.net transport Data while other devices as iPhones and Androids never get Unlimited Data."

[belfastdispatcher]

Now you're getting confused, radio apps for blackberry can let you choose the quality of the stream as well as the connection for the stream ie wap or bis, get it?

[drjay868]

Did you NOT READ M.Rizk's explanation of HOW BIS WORKS? Typical intentional ignorance by BB fanboys. Just because something goes through the NOC doesn't mean it's compressed.

blah, blah, blah...

So Yes, the statement posted by the OP is incorrect, having BlackBerry is not what makes Pandora streams for less data unless the app has a feature to stream lower quality music which will be something from Pandora end not RIM's. I wish we see the compression available on BB10 devices as carriers here in the Middle East still respect us as BlackBerry users by Unlimited BlackBerry.net transport Data while other devices as iPhones and Androids never get Unlimited Data."

You're getting pretty fired up for no reason. You've constantly referred to M.Rizk's post and knowledge of BIS/BES/WAP and denied everyone else's knowledge of BIS/BES/WAP. Well... who the heck is M.Rizk? (No offense, M.Rizk) Anyone can click in here claiming to have "a great knowledge" of BIS but not know jack. Maybe belfast knows more about it than M.Rizk and eve6. Maybe M.Rizk knows more than eve6 and belfast. Maybe they're all making sh!t up.

The point is, why don't you ask them what qualifies them to answer the OPs question instead of just jumping in the boat with the one that has the same opinion as you, instead of getting all pissy and starting a flame war.

On topic

Regardless of what data does and does not go through the NOC and gets compressed, I hope BB10 does use it. Even if it means it saves me from being .5kbs less than an iPhone or Android that has gone .5kbs over the cap but I haven't.

[Dave79]

Sure Skype to YOU is voip..because you don't have the option for video chat. But I would bet money that for 99% of consumers out there..when they're talking about Skype..they're talking about VIDEO chat.

People don't say "Hey..wanna Skype?" and mean VoiP

Well I'll be more then happy with Skype audio calls. It would cut my intenational calls bill by a great bit.

[qbnkelt]

Only because you're on Verizon is Skype available..which I know you're well aware of. As i'm sure you're aware when people are talking about Skype they're referring to video chat..not VoiP.

Absolutely, I'm aware of the VZW connection. Which is the reason I mentioned my VZW BBerries having Skype and not all BBerries.

I was addressing the poster's erroneous statement that BBerries do not have Skype. What they lack is a ffc. Had the poster mentioned that, I would not have addressed it.

His statement that BBerries do not have Skype was wrong. That was what I was addressing.

And some people do use Skype over BBerries. I have no use for it. I don't Skype on my Skyrocket.

[alby4ever]

You're getting pretty fired up for no reason. You've constantly referred to M.Rizk's post and knowledge of BIS/BES/WAP and denied everyone else's knowledge of BIS/BES/WAP. Well... who the heck is M.Rizk? (No offense, M.Rizk) Anyone can click in here claiming to have "a great knowledge" of BIS but not know jack. Maybe belfast knows more about it than M.Rizk and eve6. Maybe M.Rizk knows more than eve6 and belfast. Maybe they're all making sh!t up.

The point is, why don't you ask them what qualifies them to answer the OPs question instead of just jumping in the boat with the one that has the same opinion as you, instead of getting all pissy and starting a flame war.

On topic

Regardless of what data does and does not go through the NOC and gets compressed, I hope BB10 does use it. Even if it means it saves me from being .5kbs less than an iPhone or Android that has gone .5kbs over the cap but I haven't.

Because belfast's explanation (if you can call it that) uses words like "there's a clue in M.Rizk's explanation" and is based on the options he sees in his Pandora app to use BIS instead of regular data - even though it was already explained (and is well known to anyone who understands how BIS works) that streaming services aren't touched by BB's compression when it goes through the NOC.

That pretty much invalidates all the idiotic nonsense being spewed by BB fanboys here who believe BB's to have these magical compression powers and awesome battery life. But when you explain how it really works, they call you a troll?

This thread is a classic example of the ignorance that's rampant throughout these forums. Of course nobody wants to believe that BB's don't compress every bit of data - even though it was proven to be true. Of course nobody here wants to believe that BB's don't have magical battery life saving powers - even though there are some Android phones that last longer than the full touch screen OS7 devices, and the Transformer Prime tablet lasts longer than the Playbook.

But again, maybe ignorance is bliss and people don't like second-guessing their purchases. So they make up these fantasy claims about their devices that are factually incorrect.

[Rootbrian]

Let's stay on topic so the mods don't close this. Please.

[Stewartj1]

I stream a lot of audio and video so compression matters to me for both speed and cost when I'm bridged.

[bobauckland]

Because belfast's explanation (if you can call it that) uses words like "there's a clue in M.Rizk's explanation" and is based on the options he sees in his Pandora app to use BIS instead of regular data - even though it was already explained (and is well known to anyone who understands how BIS works) that streaming services aren't touched by BB's compression when it goes through the NOC.

That pretty much invalidates all the idiotic nonsense being spewed by BB fanboys here who believe BB's to have these magical compression powers and awesome battery life. But when you explain how it really works, they call you a troll?

This thread is a classic example of the ignorance that's rampant throughout these forums. Of course nobody wants to believe that BB's don't compress every bit of data - even though it was proven to be true. Of course nobody here wants to believe that BB's don't have magical battery life saving powers - even though there are some Android phones that last longer than the full touch screen OS7 devices, and the Transformer Prime tablet lasts longer than the Playbook.

But again, maybe ignorance is bliss and people don't like second-guessing their purchases. So they make up these fantasy claims about their devices that are factually incorrect.

So what you're saying is that BlackBerries compress data right? So you're saying if I want to have a phone that compresses data and where data will last longer cos its compressed then I should get a BlackBerry right?
Thanks for helping, all the other posts were confusing me but yours makes sense and you've convinced me to get a BlackBerry because of this compression you keep talking about.
Thanks.

[alby4ever]

So what you're saying is that BlackBerries compress data right? So you're saying if I want to have a phone that compresses data and where data will last longer cos its compressed then I should get a BlackBerry right?
Thanks for helping, all the other posts were confusing me but yours makes sense and you've convinced me to get a BlackBerry because of this compression you keep talking about.
Thanks.

Yes. If you primarily email and browse the web A LOT and you have data cap issues or can only afford the lowest data plans, then get a BB. The compression helps there. But if you decide to stream Pandora under those circumstances, you're not going to get the same benefits.

And this isn't the first time I've recommended a BB. Believe it or not.

[eve6er69]

Again m.rizk no offense but because he posted toward your favor alby you fall back to him.

You mean to tell me if you take your android device or an iphone and stream pandora for 3 weeks you'll do close to or under 700mb?

Alby you try it and come back in a week or 2 and tell me what your data usage is?

[bobauckland]

Yes. If you primarily email and browse the web A LOT and you have data cap issues or can only afford the lowest data plans, then get a BB. The compression helps there. But if you decide to stream Pandora under those circumstances, you're not going to get the same benefits.

And this isn't the first time I've recommended a BB. Believe it or not.

Sarcasm fail

[crackcookie]

Thanks for proving my point.

The ignorance in this thread was amazing. Typical BB fanboy response: *sees truth they don't like* = *calls others trolls*

My point: BIS doesn't compress media streaming. RIGHT.
BB fanboys: BIS compresses everything. WRONG.

You seem to be making the most sene, can you break this down for me, explaining the Why's and the options a bit more? I am trying to believe you, I just am not able to fully understand.

[Arreat]

Again m.rizk no offense but because he posted toward your favor alby you fall back to him.

You mean to tell me if you take your android device or an iphone and stream pandora for 3 weeks you'll do close to or under 700mb?

Alby you try it and come back in a week or 2 and tell me what your data usage is?

I honestly don't believe it until I see it. To get under 700Mb you'd have to achieve nearly 3:1 compression and that's at the low side of only 4 hours a day. The fact that MP3 files are already compressed makes it near impossible to achieve any higher compression rate from any compression. To recreate the audio you need the exact amount of bits. Take a standard compression format such as 7zip(Widely know and the most efficient compression for archiving) and you'll get less than 2% compression rates on any audio files.

Besides, there's a specific difference between BIS/BES and TCP/IP TCP/IP connections are routed though your carriers APN directly and bypass both the BIS/BES connection though RIMs NoC. BIS obviously connects to RIM and thats when data hits the BlackBerry Dispatch service where the compression/decompression occurs. That's great, but BlackBerry Dispatch, BIS-B, and BlackBerry MDS don't accept any HTTP/RTSP stream from an app not developed by a BlackBerry partner, a tier of developers which, sadly, Pandora is not.

Pandora data, strictly speaking, is never touched by BlackBerry Dispatched, nor is it ever compressed, decompressed or modified from a standard 64kbps stream rate, unless you're a Pandora One subscriber like the OP, then you can get 128kbps.

[belfastdispatcher]

I honestly don't believe it until I see it. To get under 700Mb you'd have to achieve nearly 3:1 compression and that's at the low side of only 4 hours a day. The fact that MP3 files are already compressed makes it near impossible to achieve any higher compression rate from any compression. To recreate the audio you need the exact amount of bits. Take a standard compression format such as 7zip(Widely know and the most efficient compression for archiving) and you'll get less than 2% compression rates on any audio files.

Besides, there's a specific difference between BIS/BES and TCP/IP TCP/IP connections are routed though your carriers APN directly and bypass both the BIS/BES connection though RIMs NoC. BIS obviously connects to RIM and thats when data hits the BlackBerry Dispatch service where the compression/decompression occurs. That's great, but BlackBerry Dispatch, BIS-B, and BlackBerry MDS don't accept any HTTP/RTSP stream from an app not developed by a BlackBerry partner, a tier of developers which, sadly, Pandora is not.

Pandora data, strictly speaking, is never touched by BlackBerry Dispatched, nor is it ever compressed, decompressed or modified from a standard 64kbps stream rate, unless you're a Pandora One subscriber like the OP, then you can get 128kbps.

Pandora is just one of many and north america only anyway, and frankly I would never touch it, not after the recent scandal, maybe not so recent anymore but nothing has changed since.

Can you stream radio trough BIS? Answer is yes.

And by the way, if mp3 is already copressed and can't be compressed further how did I manage to download a 24mb mp3 podcast using 18mb of data?

[Arreat]

Pandora is just one of many and north america only anyway, and frankly I would never touch it, not after the recent scandal, maybe not so recent anymore but nothing has changed since.

Can you stream radio trough BIS? Answer is yes.

And by the way, if mp3 is already copressed and can't be compressed further how did I manage to download a 24mb mp3 podcast using 18mb of data?

Magic I'd assume. MP3, or any compression, for that matter is simply a reduction in bits, or bit-rate through data loss. Even Lossless compression is throwing out redundant-bits to help shrink file size.

In a data format that is already compressed in a lossy format, I.E. MP3 the only way to reduce size is throwing out more bits that are considered only marginally important. In an MP3 File, doing so will reduce the effective bit-rate. Sure you can take a 64kbps bit-rate file and compress it down to 32kbps, but ANY compression will result in a loss of data, and what happens when you lose data? You lose bit-rate since the bit-rate is simply a calculation of bits per second. So simply put a 1 minute song at 64kbps is going to be, you guessed it 3,840 kilobits or 480 Kilobytes, there is nothing in information theory that will allow that to be smaller.

The only, repeat ONLY, way to compress it any more is throwing out certain file items such as jpeg compression on album art, compression of the MP3 headers or other non-audio information. If you're saying you got a MP3 with 35% compression, the bit-rate magically decreased while you were downloading it and it's quality was compromised.

[belfastdispatcher]

Magic I'd assume. MP3, or any compression, for that matter is simply a reduction in bits, or bit-rate through data loss. Even Lossless compression is throwing out redundant-bits to help shrink file size.

In a data format that is already compressed in a lossy format, I.E. MP3 the only way to reduce size is throwing out more bits that are considered only marginally important. In an MP3 File, doing so will reduce the effective bit-rate. Sure you can take a 64kbps bit-rate file and compress it down to 32kbps, but ANY compression will result in a loss of data, and what happens when you lose data? You lose bit-rate since the bit-rate is simply a calculation of bits per second. So simply put a 1 minute song at 64kbps is going to be, you guessed it 3,840 kilobits or 480 Kilobytes, there is nothing in information theory that will allow that to be smaller.

The only, repeat ONLY, way to compress it any more is throwing out certain file items such as jpeg compression on album art, compression of the MP3 headers or other non-audio information. If you're saying you got a MP3 with 35% compression, the bit-rate magically decreased while you were downloading it and it's quality was compromised.

Sorry but if the original and the downloaded size is 24mb, and data used is 18mb, where's the quality loss to the original mp3?

[Dave79]

Lots of useless arguiing.

The original post is not about what BIS compresses and what not.

There is some sort of compression and it's pretty darn good - end of the story. If pandora (which probably works only in north america anyway) or you tube are not compressed I dont give a cra p.

Would this compression be there in BB10 or not? That the only question that was asked. If you keep arguining about what is compressed and what is not, you need to read the first post again and stop being asses.

[eve6er69]

Believe me or not I can show you I did 663.2 mb last I checked, may have gone up but only slightly by 1 or 2 days.

Like dave said this has gone way off coarse from the original topic. If you don't think blackberry's compress that much data then so be it but in my case I have no worries about going over my 3GB while streaming internet radio 40hrs a week in my work truck.

So with that said back onto the original topic. Do you think slipstream will do as good of a job compressing data and speeding it up as the noc does?

[blackberry-unlocking710]

I just hop that there will be the option to control it.

[VerryBestr]

Just wondering if you guys think we will still see a lot of the data compression we see now on devices on the newer bb10 devices.

This is an interesting thread (aside from the flaming), and a good question. I've been thinking that BIS (but not BES) will be transformed into RIM's cloud service. The NOC would no longer transport most internet traffic to non-enterprise BB10 devices, with the exception of RIM services (BBM, access to cloud storage, ...). That is because I believe that data traffic will be increasingly dominated by music and especially video, which cannot be significantly further compressed at a reasonable cost.

Not here to argue with you all just want you to do some reading but you guys probably won't, even tho the proof is in the pudding plain as day.
RIM quietly buys Slipstream Data for compression technology.

Thank you for the reference. RIM's technology may do even more than what SlipStream offers to carriers, but here is what SlipStream says in its FAQ:

| SlipStream SP FAQs :: SlipStream

Will SlipStream SP speed up everything I do on the Web?

SlipStream SP significantly speeds up Web page access. To achieve this speed up, proprietary lossless compression is applied to text, html, xml, javascript and style sheets. Proprietary image compression is applied to GIF images, JPEG images, PNG images (with SlipStream SP version 5.0 and later) and Flash content.

SlipStream also accelerates email traffic (POP3, IMAP and SMTP) and FTP using lossless compression.

SlipStream does NOT speed up file downloads (except over FTP) and streaming audio/video. Due to the encryted nature of HTTPS traffic, SlipStream SP cannot accelerate this traffic.

SlipStream uses "loseless" compression for most things it compresss, but not for images and Flash content (i.e., it reduces the quality of the images in order to reduce the size).

The FAQ says that SlipStream "cannot" accelerate encrypted traffic. Some data simply cannot be compressed: for example, a sequence of bits with completely random values. It is simply impossible. Modern encryption methods turn readable info into a something that looks like this completely random sequence -- if it does not appear to be random, if it can be compressed, than the encryption is well along the way to being broken.


RIM financed some studies of how much compression works for certain kinds of files, if anyone really wants to get into the details:

| http://www.rysavy.com/articles/2010_...efficiency.pdf
| http://www.rysavy.com/Articles/2009_...Efficiency.pdf

These files are also on RIM's web site, I think. In most cases, RIM is more data efficient when compared to the original data size or to data transmitted by concurrents, amazingly so in a few cases. In a few cases, RIM's was less efficient.

... if mp3 is already copressed and can't be compressed further how did I manage to download a 24mb mp3 podcast using 18mb of data?

Some mp3 files could be easily compressed. Imagine a "constant bit rate" compression of total silence. Every second occupies space in the file, but the space for each new second contains no new information. That file could be easily compressed. With "variable bit rate" compression, the file would be much shorter and would be difficult to compress much further. Voice recordings contain less information than music recordings, so I'm surprised but not really shocked that a podcast mp3 could be further compressed. Also, there are various methods for compressing sound and video (even for a given format like mp3), such as single-pass versus multi-pass -- up to a certain point, the longer a computer works to compress something, the better will be the results. A "quick and dirty" compression could be recompressed into a shorter form by using a better method, without affecting quality.

I am at 663mb with 2 days left in my billing cycle. I've streamed music for the past 3 weeks about 4-6 hrs a day 5 days a week. I bet if you did that on any other phone it would be way over the limit already.

That works out to about 20kbps (at 5 hrs per day), and 9 MB/hour. Pandora base quality is 64kbs AAC+ -- at least, that's what I read on the internet. I ran across some reports from Android users who measured 30 to 40 MB/hour while listening to Pandora 64kbps.

If RIM has a magic bullet for streaming music and video, great. But I would think that all those streaming companies would be beating down RIM's door to gain access to that technology, in order to improve their compression, reduce network costs and attract more customers. I would sure like to see some controlled tests: data actually used per hour, with no WiFi available.

[eve6er69]

This is an interesting thread (aside from the flaming), and a good question. I've been thinking that BIS (but not BES) will be transformed into RIM's cloud service. The NOC would no longer transport most internet traffic to non-enterprise BB10 devices, with the exception of RIM services (BBM, access to cloud storage, ...). That is because I believe that data traffic will be increasingly dominated by music and especially video, which cannot be significantly further compressed at a reasonable cost.




Thank you for the reference. RIM's technology may do even more than what SlipStream offers to carriers, but here is what SlipStream says in its FAQ:

| SlipStream SP FAQs :: SlipStream

Will SlipStream SP speed up everything I do on the Web?

SlipStream SP significantly speeds up Web page access. To achieve this speed up, proprietary lossless compression is applied to text, html, xml, javascript and style sheets. Proprietary image compression is applied to GIF images, JPEG images, PNG images (with SlipStream SP version 5.0 and later) and Flash content.

SlipStream also accelerates email traffic (POP3, IMAP and SMTP) and FTP using lossless compression.

SlipStream does NOT speed up file downloads (except over FTP) and streaming audio/video. Due to the encryted nature of HTTPS traffic, SlipStream SP cannot accelerate this traffic.

SlipStream uses "loseless" compression for most things it compresss, but not for images and Flash content (i.e., it reduces the quality of the images in order to reduce the size).

The FAQ says that SlipStream "cannot" accelerate encrypted traffic. Some data simply cannot be compressed: for example, a sequence of bits with completely random values. It is simply impossible. Modern encryption methods turn readable info into a something that looks like this completely random sequence -- if it does not appear to be random, if it can be compressed, than the encryption is well along the way to being broken.


RIM financed some studies of how much compression works for certain kinds of files, if anyone really wants to get into the details:

| http://www.rysavy.com/articles/2010_...efficiency.pdf
| http://www.rysavy.com/Articles/2009_...Efficiency.pdf

These files are also on RIM's web site, I think. In most cases, RIM is more data efficient when compared to the original data size or to data transmitted by concurrents, amazingly so in a few cases. In a few cases, RIM's was less efficient.




Some mp3 files could be easily compressed. Imagine a "constant bit rate" compression of total silence. Every second occupies space in the file, but the space for each new second contains no new information. That file could be easily compressed. With "variable bit rate" compression, the file would be much shorter and would be difficult to compress much further. Voice recordings contain less information than music recordings, so I'm surprised but not really shocked that a podcast mp3 could be further compressed. Also, there are various methods for compressing sound and video (even for a given format like mp3), such as single-pass versus multi-pass -- up to a certain point, the longer a computer works to compress something, the better will be the results. A "quick and dirty" compression could be recompressed into a shorter form by using a better method, without affecting quality.




That works out to about 20kbps (at 5 hrs per day), and 9 MB/hour. Pandora base quality is 64kbs AAC+ -- at least, that's what I read on the internet. I ran across some reports from Android users who measured 30 to 40 MB/hour while listening to Pandora 64kbps.

If RIM has a magic bullet for streaming music and video, great. But I would think that all those streaming companies would be beating down RIM's door to gain access to that technology, in order to improve their compression, reduce network costs and attract more customers. I would sure like to see some controlled tests: data actually used per hour, with no WiFi available.

Yeah I think slipstream is another great acquisition from rim. They haven't been on top of things but buying tat and slipstream I feel/hope will give them the upper hand for the next few years.

Sent from my BlackBerry Bold 9900 using Tapatalk

[pcguy514]

I'm having trouble finding another company that they purchased that specialize in hd content optimization for streaming etc. It another company from the Ontario region, anyone know what I'm talking about?

It is a good topic minus the trolling on both sides.