04-20-17 11:07 PM
66 123
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  1. i_plod_an_dr_void's Avatar
    Isn't this what bb10 needs? Surprised Canada's Competition watchdog hasn't looked into this, or has it?
    Right now this is limited to Russia, but it sure leaves a crack for BlackBerry or its major customers to pursue...

    https://www.yahoo.com/tech/google-re...--finance.html
    04-18-17 07:57 AM
  2. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    I expect that Russian "deal" was more about lining a few Russian bureaucrat pockets, and less about making things better for the Russian people by making it "fair" for local search tools/engines or apps. Won't change that Android is the OS of choice, just give an opportunity for other apps.

    Neither the Russian nor European proceedings will affect the end of BB10.
    Troy Tiscareno, TGIS and xandros9 like this.
    04-18-17 08:11 AM
  3. conite's Avatar
    BlackBerry has already locked BB10 away. There is no going black.
    04-18-17 08:19 AM
  4. johnny_bravo72's Avatar
    Lol more false hope?
    DrBoomBotz, jmr1015, TGIS and 2 others like this.
    04-18-17 08:25 AM
  5. kvndoom's Avatar
    Lol more false hope?
    It's the fuel that keeps this forum alive.
    04-18-17 08:35 AM
  6. kvndoom's Avatar
    So being able to use a different default search engine on Android will cause a BB10 comeback. Gotcha.

    Next!
    04-18-17 08:36 AM
  7. i_plod_an_dr_void's Avatar
    I expect that Russian "deal" was more about lining a few Russian bureaucrat pockets, and less about making things better for the Russian people by making it "fair" for local search tools/engines or apps. Won't change that Android is the OS of choice, just give an opportunity for other apps.

    Neither the Russian nor European proceedings will affect the end of BB10.
    The issue had nothing to do with lining pockets (except to facilitate competition) . Microsoft had the same issue running afoul of US regulators, way back in early windows days when it was dominent. It's a funny thing, having an almost monopolistic stranglehold, in this scenario it becomes not unlike a State controlled economy. Our forms of governments are supposed to lean towards encouraging a healthy marketplace, where there is healthy competition.

    Android/iOS/BB10-QNX all rooted in their similiar unix origins...the question is access to the stores such as google play, and the rights to allow such apps to run on devices that aren't strictly google dictated and restricted devices...especially if you call the play store the defacto standard for the smartphone universe. This was BB10's problem going forward at some point as developers were enticed to the Android or iOS ecosystems, and either wouldn't or couldn't profitably convert code for those apps to be hosted directly in BlackBerry world. It is also the issue that BB10 encounters with netflix, snap and the like who yanked the easy ability or any ability at all to load these apps without running circles, that a typical cellphone owner prefer not to have to do. There are no real technical issues that I am aware of that prevent these apps from natively running in BB10, with some minor tweaking. What should stop bb10 from running Google Play apps within an Android sandbox/or Virtual machine within BB10? Is google freeware a monopolizing tactic because of the requirements that software be tethered to info gathering through Google specific api's ? Its an interesting thought exercise.
    Jake2826 likes this.
    04-18-17 08:39 AM
  8. Ment's Avatar
    This or the EU investigation has nothing to do with opening the Playstore to other non-Android platforms, nor does it prevent Google from enforcing compatibility testing before it issues licenses to the Playstore. The agreement just provides more competition for the default apps or maybe in an edge case the ability to sell an Android phone without the Playstore/Google apps at all in countries where the Playstore exists (why you'd want to waste money doing that is another matter).

    In short it provides no path to revive the BB10 platform or the platform of other OS that have an Android runtime.
    TGIS, app_Developer and BigBadWulf like this.
    04-18-17 10:08 AM
  9. thurask's Avatar
    So being able to use a different default search engine on Android will cause a BB10 comeback. Gotcha.

    Next!
    A butterfly flaps its wings in China, does that mean BB10 will come back?
    jmr1015, TGIS and xandros9 like this.
    04-18-17 10:21 AM
  10. i_plod_an_dr_void's Avatar
    Clearly there appears to be only two dominent play stores, a duopoloy (in the English-speaking market at least). Free market economies that wish to function properly frown on such situations, and on any players that contribute to such situations. As such a dominating app developer could be caught in the net, if they exclusively supplied to only two stores. If you as a consumer, can only purchase tires, or cars or furniture from only two retailers, you would understand the argument, and would be indignant about the lack of competition. The "store" is the problem, and other stores have been starved of stock "apps" . So either Google, Apple or the dominent apps developers could be in for a rough time, if an issue is made of the current market situation. Small apps makers of course would not be affected, precisely because they do not dominate the market.

    ( Just to be sure I do not speak for nor represent BlackBerry whatsoever, nor have I ever. It is a fair assessment of this marketplace of course IMHO.)
    04-18-17 10:32 AM
  11. Ment's Avatar
    Societies and governments are fine with duopoly as long as they serve the needs of the end users. There is no clamor or drive to push Linux as a 3rd alternative on desktop for the very same reason.
    TGIS and app_Developer like this.
    04-18-17 10:46 AM
  12. i_plod_an_dr_void's Avatar
    Societies and governments are fine with duopoly as long as they serve the needs of the end users. There is no clamor or drive to push Linux as a 3rd alternative on desktop for the very same reason.
    The desktop itself has multiple channels of distribution...several retailers, on-line retailers, direct channel ...so that is a healthy 'retail' front-end.
    IBM's OS/2 was killed although it was superior to anything Microsoft or Apple offered at the time - from a dearth of apps (though it could run most of the old major Dos apps at the time), and perhaps some channel tie-ups with manufacturers that might have been questionable, Apple and Linux both exist as desktop alternatives.

    An argument can be made that linux is the 3rd option for the desktop, Office the major app, is available on two platforms,and robust alternatives are available on Linux and in the cloud. It could be argued that MS killed off the competition Lotus and Borland (then Corel Quattro Pro/Wordperfect etc (though surpisingly QP and WP still exist today) because it controlled the OS on its own platform.

    However the smartphone is a new beast and it only has really two dominent 'retailers' for apps, by coercion ...iTunes and Google Play.....not a good situation.

    The fact that there may be commercial duopolys out there today, does not mean that they are the best of situations for a large number of reasons, they are not the ideal for a free-market economy, best not to encourage more, especially in newly developed commercial fields, if it can be helped. Duopolies/Monopolies and Government Monopolies can tend to affect the health of democratic/free speech societies and livelihoods in a very negative manner over time....Just like the old Apple 1984 commercial dramatically illustrated.....
    04-18-17 11:32 AM
  13. conite's Avatar
    Clearly there appears to be only two dominent play stores, a duopoloy (in the English-speaking market at least). Free market economies that wish to function properly frown on such situations, and on any players that contribute to such situations. As such a dominating app developer could be caught in the net, if they exclusively supplied to only two stores. If you as a consumer, can only purchase tires, or cars or furniture from only two retailers, you would understand the argument, and would be indignant about the lack of competition. The "store" is the problem, and other stores have been starved of stock "apps" . So either Google, Apple or the dominent apps developers could be in for a rough time, if an issue is made of the current market situation. Small apps makers of course would not be affected, precisely because they do not dominate the market.

    ( Just to be sure I do not speak for nor represent BlackBerry whatsoever, nor have I ever. It is a fair assessment of this marketplace of course IMHO.)
    Windows and Mac OS have dominated desktop OSes for many, many years.

    I see no government coming to the rescue of Linux.

    Edit: I see @Ment already made the point.
    04-18-17 11:45 AM
  14. conite's Avatar

    However the smartphone is a new beast and it only has really two dominent 'retailers' for apps, by coercion ...iTunes and Google Play.....not a good situation.
    Who's going to pay the billions and billions of dollars to prop up another ecosystem?
    04-18-17 11:49 AM
  15. moosbb's Avatar
    A butterfly flaps its wings in China, does that mean BB10 will come back?
    No, it made the KeyOne available in Rio de Janeiro ! ;p

    Posted via CB10
    04-18-17 12:29 PM
  16. Muruganberry's Avatar
    Pity state for BlackBerry 10

    Posted via CB10
    04-18-17 12:39 PM
  17. i_plod_an_dr_void's Avatar
    Who's going to pay the billions and billions of dollars to prop up another ecosystem?
    It doesn't take billions of $$ to recompile popular apps and put on 3rd party stores like bb10 and BlackBerryWorld.

    It wouldn't take billions to open up Google Play to platforms such as bb10 either as an alternative approach.
    It has become clear that the app to no small effect drives the smartphone, so limiting access to the app, to two stores, might be "unfair trade".
    64 bit upgrades can handle 32bit OS systems...no reason why that support isn't there (it may very well already be) , the pc evolution is the model there as well.

    I wouldn't call it propping up an ecosystem, I'd call it not strangling a marketplace with only two shops. Its in the apps makers best interest to support multiple platforms, because it gives Apple and Google less power to 'mis-behave' over the app makers.
    04-18-17 12:44 PM
  18. conite's Avatar
    It doesn't take billions of $$ to recompile popular apps and put on 3rd party stores like bb10 and BlackBerryWorld.

    It wouldn't take billions to open up Google Play to platforms such as bb10 either as an alternative approach.
    It has become clear that the app to no small effect drives the smartphone, so limiting access to the app, to two stores, might be "unfair trade".
    64 bit upgrades can handle 32bit OS systems...no reason why that support isn't there (it may very well already be) , the pc evolution is the model there as well.

    I wouldn't call it propping up an ecosystem, I'd call it not strangling a marketplace with only two shops. Its in the apps makers best interest to support multiple platforms, because it gives Apple and Google less power to 'mis-behave' over the app makers.
    "Recompile" popular apps? Huh?

    You can't "open up Google Play Store" to BB10. The Android Runtime comes no where near the threshold of compatibility with Android. Who will support this? What developer wants to deal with that hot mess?

    Ecosystem isn't just about apps, it's wearables, connected devices, accessories, etc, etc.
    TGIS, app_Developer and BigBadWulf like this.
    04-18-17 12:52 PM
  19. i_plod_an_dr_void's Avatar
    "
    Ecosystem isn't just about apps, it's wearables, connected devices, accessories, etc, etc.
    Connect devices? So we're talking bluetooth? or another industry standard? Or did the Google play players bake-in non-standard , communication protocols and hardware (typical for apple, ie power-cords)?
    04-18-17 01:01 PM
  20. i_plod_an_dr_void's Avatar
    "Recompile" popular apps? Huh?

    You can't "open up Google Play Store" to BB10. The Android Runtime comes no where near the threshold of compatibility with Android. Who will support this? What developer wants to deal with that hot mess?
    So the basis for the Android runtime problem is that the current bb10 is many iterations older. Most/many apps apparantly could still run in that older runtime. As for an upgrade path, that has already been done by Google ..from? thru .lollipop to nougat....those new api's can't be incorporated into a bb10 android runtime? I would be surprised if that came anywhere near a billion in costs, especially since they could probably trace and skip straight to noughat? I'm missing how the arm architecture is radically different on the BlackBerry hardware from other Android devices currently accessing Google Play.
    I really don't know how terribly different the Android runtime is from the current native Android.
    But again it is a two, possibly 3- pronged solution, open the store, or recompile the popular apps, both or build html5 versions
    for some.


    Also who paid all those sweat equity not, unpaid volunteer developers of android?
    04-18-17 01:20 PM
  21. conite's Avatar
    Connect devices? So we're talking bluetooth? or another industry standard? Or did the Google play players bake-in non-standard , communication protocols and hardware (typical for apple, ie power-cords)?
    Who's going to build connected devices to properly integrate with other operating systems? Who will enforce software standards on other platforms? Who's going to develop and support the software side of the connected devices?

    Android Wear, Android boxes, Apple watch, VR equipment, etc, etc. This is all part of a working ecosystem.

    You can't just turn on a switch and make this happen.
    04-18-17 01:23 PM
  22. eshropshire's Avatar
    I am at a complete loss to see how this has anything to do with BB10. The settlement let's some Russian apps be on Android phones. Does BlackBerry have some Android apps they want on Android phones. Russia is effectively contolled by a dictatorship today. I have no doubt the case was not winnable in a Russian court since there is no rule of law in their courts.

    I believe the same rule already applies in China. These cases do not carry over to countries that a free and open courts. Similar cases even if started in the EU or USA would take many years to settle.

    The main fight here is really about search engines. I don't see Blackberry getting into that business.
    BigBadWulf likes this.
    04-18-17 01:25 PM
  23. conite's Avatar
    So the basis for the Android runtime problem is that the current bb10 is many iterations older. Most/many apps apparantly could still run in that older runtime. As for an upgrade path, that has already been done by Google ..from? thru .lollipop to nougat....those new api's can't be incorporated into a bb10 android runtime? I would be surprised if that came anywhere near a billion in costs, especially since they could probably trace and skip straight to noughat? I'm missing how the arm architecture is radically different on the BlackBerry hardware from other Android devices currently accessing Google Play.
    I really don't know how terribly different the Android runtime is from the current native Android.
    But again it is a two, possibly 3- pronged solution, open the store, or recompile the popular apps, both or build html5 versions
    for some.


    Also who paid all those sweat equity not, unpaid volunteer developers of android?
    A VM will never be compatible - even with an upgrade to Nougat.

    BB10 already has a notification system, a dialer, SMS handling, etc, etc. On a low level, the VM has to properly handshake with all of these services. Who will manage, support and develop that infrastructure?

    What about Google Play Services - which most of the top apps require? Who will replace those services on a BB10 device? How?

    I repeat, there is NO ONE left at BlackBerry to develop anything on BB10. It's a done deal. Finished. Over.
    Blacklatino likes this.
    04-18-17 01:28 PM
  24. i_plod_an_dr_void's Avatar
    I repeat, there is NO ONE left at BlackBerry to develop anything on BB10. It's a done deal. Finished. Over.
    Yes I am aware that there is no major staffing for bb10 enhancement currently, or will there be a known likely probability of one in the future, given the current Business plans trajectory.

    Though a crack in Google is still a crack, and that crack can spread to the store for the same reasons as the search engine issue. And that is the point even if BlackBerry never wants to consider or even be seen to be even thinking through that issue , for a variety of other reasons, including viability of its other buisness plans. And that I understand. Arm is Arm , OS specialists are OS specialists, and programmers are programmers, they can go back , they can go fro (They can even be CS/IT majors working on their thesis's or collaborators across campuses). I agree its not in the plans. But I contend that it might be possible...and you are clearly stating it can't be supported in the market as it operates now.
    04-18-17 01:59 PM
  25. pgg101's Avatar
    It's dead. No one wants to invest in a 32bit OS with no market share.

    RedBerry Passport / 10.3.3.2205 / Telus
    Blacklatino likes this.
    04-18-17 03:39 PM
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