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  1. kevinnugent's Avatar
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    #276  

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    Quote Originally Posted by E92Vancouver View Post
    Who would have known that email would have been such an important tool.
    It seems Google did.
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  2. tcee-'s Avatar
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    i've browsed through all the pages here, but i'm still confused. with my gmail account, will the email i receive and send instantly and automatically show up on my device (the way it does on my playbook)? if i understand correctly, the new bb10 software handles email the same way my playbook os does, so they should behave the same way correct?
  3. tinker2000's Avatar
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    I just set up exchange mail earlier and set the push option in the settings> That seems to confirm it has push for me... the emails appeared at exactly the same time on my phone and PC at my desk
  4. Omnitech's Avatar
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    OK, I just waded through this entire fustercluck of a thread. Argggggh. Let me see if I can help out here. At least I'll put all my tl;dr all in one place.

    Short answer: Some traditional Blackberry email features are going away. In particular the BIS service which could retrieve email from "non-push" email servers and deliver it to Blackberries quickly and with low resource usage.

    However, there are alternative mechanisms to provide equivalent speed from most of the popular webmail services at the possible expense of higher resource usage. See below.



    There are 5 main email server architectures to be aware of:

    1. POP server. "Store and forward". Email is received on server, sits on server until it is retrieved, whereupon it is deleted from the server. This works best when you only have a single email client, but you can "kludge" multiple clients by configuring one email client not to delete an email after retrieving it, and another email client to retrieve and delete. (Which usually works.) These were common with old-school ISPs and legacy corporate networks.
    2. IMAP server. This is a newer technology than POP. In this architecture, emails are stored indefinitely on the server. You can use multiple email clients (even at the same time) to view, organize or delete messages, or download a local copy of messages. If you delete either on your email client or via a web interface, it will either go into a "trash folder" which you have to manually purge as desired, or it is deleted immediately, depending on email client configuration. Many ISPs and companies use this now instead of POP.
    3. Microsoft Exchange Server. Full-blown enterprise email. Conceptually similiar to IMAP as it stores all messages on the server, but with many additional features. Often includes calendar and tasks features. Email connection is either via a proprietary "MAPI" connection, or via Exchange Active Sync ("EAS"), a periodic synchronization protocol.
    4. Webmail. ie Gmail/Hotmail/Yahoo. Normally used via a web browser or proprietary email client app, some allow retrieval via POP/IMAP/EAS protocols as well.
    5. Blackberry.net email using Blackberry Internet Services, or "BIS". Proprietary "push" email system, can be used natively with a "Blackberry.net" email address, or can be configured to retrieve email from other POP/IMAP servers and deliver them to your Blackberry inbox(s). Allows email sent to "masquerade" as the email address being forwarded to it, so your emails still appear as if they are coming from the external account(s). Requires the Blackberry-proprietary BIS service, a Blackberry ID and a Blackberry smartphone. (BIS is also used for other traditional Blackberry services, like BBM and PIN messages.)


    #1: POP mail is checked/retrieved by periodically "polling" for new messages. 3-15 minute polling intervals are common. This is the most data-intensive system due to the continuous polling. Traditionally it was "all or nothing" - once you knew there were messages waiting, in order to see them you had to download the entire message, including large file attachments. Modern email clients allow you to "peek" at the beginning of the message - ie to read the latest response at the top of the body of the message - without downloading the whole thing.

    #2: IMAP also uses polling to retrieve messages, but it has an optional modes called ie "IMAP IDLE" or "P-IMAP" that as long as the client maintains an active connection, the server can "push" any new messages to the client without the client having to constantly poll for them. This conserves resources on the client and carrier data usage, and generally retrieves mail faster especially when compared to infrequent polling.

    #3: Exchange uses one of 2 main proprietary methods to "Push" email to the client, so emails are received quickly.

    #4: Webmail services are typically accessed via web browser or a proprietary app. Some allow "generic" retrieval protocols via standard email clients. Here's an overview of some of the more popular ones and which methods they support:

    Google Gmail / Google Apps
    Web
    POP
    IMAP / IMAP IDLE (PUSH)
    Atom
    Exchange ActiveSync "EAS" (PUSH - Ending 2012-07 for new users)

    Microsoft Windows Live Mail / Hotmail / Outlook.com
    Web
    POP
    Exchange ActiveSync "EAS" (PUSH)

    Yahoo Mail
    Web
    POP (legacy / paid accounts)
    IMAP - via imap.rim.mail.yahoo.com or rim.imap.mail.yahoo.com)
    P-IMAP / XYMPKI / Proprietary (PUSH)

    Fastmail.fm
    Web
    POP
    IMAP / IMAP IDLE / IMAP Advanced (PUSH)


    #5: Blackberry's proprietary "BIS" / Blackberry.net - this was a boon in the days when many people were using POP email systems which had no "push" capability at all. RIM/Blackberry collected your emails by continuously polling your POP email server, then sending new messages to the Blackberry without requiring the Blackberry itself to constantly poll the POP server. BIS also includes some data-compression features and gives users the ability to decide on a message-by-message basis whether to keep a local copy of the message, leave the email on the POP server for later retrieval from ie a home PC, or delete the email on the POP server. BIS email can also collect email from IMAP servers and popular webmail providers such as AOL, Gmail, Windows Live or Yahoo.

    However since POP email servers are getting less and less common, and because BIS had its own limitations (message and attachment size limitations, inability to edit a forwarded message, inability to see full email headers, etc) and because BIS is a complex and costly service whose cost was passed-on to carriers, Blackberry decided to discontinue reliance on this service for individual user email starting with Blackberry 10. (Blackberry's enterprise email products are not affected.) Blackberry has stated that existing users will be provided a mechanism to automatically forward emails sent to or originating from *.blackberry.net addresses to another email address for up to a year after the activation of a Blackberry 10 device.

    The upshot of this is that in some cases, people who are currently using POP-based email services will not have the BIS "pseudo push" service available to them any more. For many users, they can simply switch to a different method of retrieving messages from their provider, as most major email providers today support one of the more modern protocols as listed above.

    For those who do not have that option, there are some other possible workarounds. One option would be to auto-forward emails from your traditional provider to an account at an email provider that provides quick/efficient retrieval - ie using "IMAP IDLE" or "EAS". Another option would be to use some special POP communication settings to help minimize the traffic incurred during each polling/retrieval cycle. (ie some email servers and clients support data compression, and most POP clients today have a setting to limit the size of "message chunk" downloaded, to allow you to peek at a message with a big file attachment, for example, without having to download the whole attachment unless you choose to do so.)

    So to wrap up: if you are currently using Gmail or Microsoft Live / Outlook.com, you should still be able to receive your emails almost as soon as your email provider releases them, though you may have to adjust some account settings to make sure you are using the most efficient retrieval method. In some cases this may entail higher resource/data usage than the old "BIS" system, but that puts Blackberry 10 on par with all its other major competitors and provides some actual benefits as well.

    Yahoo is a special case. While Yahoo supports push email delivery (Indeed, Blackberry's legacy BIS service implments this) it is a proprietary protocol and this is not currently supported in Blackberry 10, possibly for security reasons. (Apparently XYMPKI sends auth credentials in the clear, which is a bigger deal over the internet than when it is encapsulated in BIS traffic. To be clear: this is speculation on my part. I don't have any official info from Blackberry on the reason this has changed w/ Blackberry 10. For what it's worth, Windows Phone 8 has the same issue: no push Yahoo email via the native email client.)

    I hope this has been helpful, if perhaps a little tl;dr.
    Last edited by Omnitech; 03-03-2013 at 01:48 AM. Reason: Edited Yahoo entry, added Yahoo summary item.
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  5. Omnitech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey_T View Post
    So what happens to the user@carrier.blackberry.net email addresses that currently push instantly to our Blackberry handsets? Do these addresses go dead when (if) we upgrade from a 9900 or other handset to a new BB10 handset?
    An article I read today, quoting Blackberry, said that when you activate a BB10 device and setup email, there is a form that notifies you that the blackberry.net accounts are being sunsetted, and offers to forward the messages to any other address you specify for up to a year. That includes system messages such as activation notifications and so on.
  6. Omnitech's Avatar
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    Of possible interest - comparison of different Exchange Active Sync client implementations. (BB10 is not in the list)

    Comparison of Exchange ActiveSync clients - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
  7. kjjb0204's Avatar
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    #282  

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    There is some serious misinformation going on in this thread. I'm not a BB10 expert, but I do know a thing or two about email. Just a couple of quick facts:

    1. ActiveSync - more formally known as Microsoft Exchange ActiveSync. If you are not connected to a Microsoft Exchange email server, you can't use ActiveSync. (ok, there are a couple of cloud-based subscription providers of EAS, but very few use these). EAS is not for personal email. Google's discontinuance of support for ActiveSync will only be relevant to you if your workplace uses gmail for their corporate email service. It's only those accounts that will be affected. If your company uses Microsoft Exchange, your gmail will not be affected.

    2. Push email - you will get emails instantly if you are on BES, or if you are using an IMAP supported email service. Some of these IMAP services are gmail and AOL. Note that you must go to your settings in gmail online to configure IMAP and turn off POP3. By default a new gmail user will have POP3, not IMAP. IMAP is more of a synchronization technology versus push. IMAP is a technology that keeps all of your email clients synchronized with each other so you can access your email inbox from multiple devices, like your desktop, tablet and phone and the inbox will be the same in all of them. It's always on and supposed to be virtually instant. POP3 doesn't do this. If you are using email that only supports POP3, it will deliver every 15 minutes, because it is a client based service, not cloud-sync. Some POP3 only email services are outlook.com, hotmail.com, live.com. Why every service doesn't support IMAP by now in 2013 is beyond me.

    3. Outlook - people are confusing the app in Microsoft Office called Outlook with the email service outlook.com. Outlook the app is just that - an email client program used as the presentation face of your email, calendar and contacts. If you are connected to an Exchange server, it will have instant push email. If you are using for POP3 mail service retrieval, it will only deliver email at the intervals you choose in settings. This is entirely different from outlook.com web-based email service. That is not an app, but a POP3 based email service like hotmail.

    So, if you have Exhange or IMAP service, you will have push. If all you use for email is POP3, you'll get it at intervals.
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  8. Omnitech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjjb0204 View Post
    There is some serious misinformation going on in this thread.
    Including in your post, I'm afraid. See below. (Most of this was explained in my large post about 3 posts back)


    Quote Originally Posted by kjjb0204 View Post
    1. ActiveSync - more formally known as Microsoft Exchange ActiveSync.
    No - "ActiveSync" and "Exchange Active Sync" are two different things. In grand Microsoft tradition, they created conflicting/confusing/overlapping product names.

    ActiveSync by itself is the deprecated desktop sync protocol, which was ultimately replaced by Windows Mobile Device Center. (I believe ActiveSync is what Blackberry Desktop uses to sync with Outlook actually.) EAS is the Exchange email/calendar/contacts/etc network sync protocol.


    Quote Originally Posted by kjjb0204 View Post
    If you are not connected to a Microsoft Exchange email server, you can't use (Exchange) Active Sync. (ok, there are a couple of cloud-based subscription providers of EAS, but very few use these). EAS is not for personal email. Google's discontinuance of support for ActiveSync will only be relevant to you if your workplace uses gmail for their corporate email service. It's only those accounts that will be affected.
    Actually Google reputedly is not discontinuing EAS for commercial customers, only for free customers.

    Secondly - the only push protocol usable with Outlook.com is EAS, that service doesn't support IMAP.


    Quote Originally Posted by kjjb0204 View Post
    Some POP3 only email services are outlook.com, hotmail.com, live.com.
    As mentioned above, the MS sites support EAS as their sole "push" technology. (And FWIW: those 3 domains are mostly different skins on the same basic email service anyway.)


    Quote Originally Posted by kjjb0204 View Post
    Why every service doesn't support IMAP by now in 2013 is beyond me.
    In Microsoft's case, they are clearly pushing their Outlook/Exchange ecosystem. Which is probably the main reason why they renamed it "Outlook.com" in the first place.

    Just like how Google announced the rescinding of EAS a few months after Blackberry announced they were committing themselves to EAS, if you ask me. Google wouldn't mind throwing a few curves at Blackberry I'm sure. Matter of fact, check out the following article - Google admits they are handicapping their sites (Maps in this case) on WP8 devices:

    Google Maps Has Never Been Accessible On Internet Explorer Mobile Now Blocked on Windows Phone (Updated)


    And then Microsoft turns around and takes a dig at Google for discontinuing EAS, tells people to move to Outlook.com instead:

    Microsoft suggests Gmail users switch to Outlook.com for their Exchange ActiveSync fix | WMPoweruser

    Ecosystem wars.
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  9. ssbtech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omnitech View Post
    Ecosystem wars.
    Which in turn hurt the consumer. Consumers rely on one technology from a service and that service goes and drops it.

    I wonder if Google's support of EAS was partly why RIM dropped BIS? If so, that would have been a very poor bet on RIM's part.
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  10. Omnitech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssbtech View Post
    Which in turn hurt the consumer. Consumers rely on one technology from a service and that service goes and drops it.
    Conceptually I agree that vendors in the I.T. sector have a bad habit of forcing customers into new products even when the previous stuff still works fine for a lot of people.

    However in this specific case, the POP3 protocol was finalized in 1988, nearly 25 years ago. BIS was introduced probably over 10 years ago. Those are pretty long runs by I.T. industry standards.


    Quote Originally Posted by ssbtech View Post
    I wonder if Google's support of EAS was partly why RIM dropped BIS? If so, that would have been a very poor bet on RIM's part.
    Not just Google but almost everyone else too. They have also abandoned the traditional MAPI interface between MS Exchange and BES and replaced that with ActiveSync as well. I think it's mostly a matter of sticking with the interface which has the best traction right now, and which is already fully supported in devices like iOS, Android and Windows/Phone, all of which Blackberry is hoping to manage using their own corporate BYOD solution.

    Ironically, Microsoft mostly developed Exchange Active Sync to compete with RIM's BES, and now RIM is turning it around to compete with Microsoft.
  11. ssbtech's Avatar
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    And instead of keeping their own platform going (BIS), they're relying on competing products to deliver email to BlackBerry phones.

    POP may be a 1988 standard, but it still works quite well today. I was having a conversation with a fellow on another forum who was frustrated at his Android phone. The problem? All this "syncing" wizardry means when he wants to delete a message from his phone, it's gone from his server and any other device that syncs with the server.

    POP3's "Leave a copy on the server" feature works just fine. My Outlook client at home clears off the server, and any device I'm using leaves it on the server.

    As I get emails throughout the day on my phone and laptop, I can read them and delete them so they don't clutter up my devices, but they're all still there to look at when I get home.


    Why do I want emails at home but not on my device?

    Let's see... on the personal side I get dozens of "thread reply notifications" from forums. Really don't want those on my phone, but I do want to check them when I get home. I can quickly read and delete them on my phone, or if I should desire simply filter them out at the BIS level. Perfect.

    Then there's surveillance camera notifications I get sent via email. Again, nice to see on my phone, but I keep a record on my PC so off the phone they come, and into Outlook they go.

    There's lots of people who only want emails on their phone for a very short time, if at all. I don't like carrying too much personal info on my phone either.

    Believe it or not, there are plenty of people (including tech geeks like myself) who do not want to use cloud storage. I don't want all my devices sync'd. I'll choose what device gets what file/email/etc, thank you very much.


    I don't need to upgrade my Torch 9800 to a Z10 by any stretch of the imagination. I was interested in trying something new and the product certainly intrigues me. But even with Angry Birds, Instagram, Skype and all that hype being unavailable on my 9800, I still feel like I'd be taking a step back giving up BIS. It's like my security blanket. I'd feel naked and confused and vulnerable without it. iDroid users don't realize how far their "heads are in the clouds" with their silly toys for telephones.
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  12. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
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    #287  

    Default Re: BB10 does not have push email?

    Quote Originally Posted by ssbtech View Post
    And instead of keeping their own platform going (BIS), they're relying on competing products to deliver email to BlackBerry phones.

    POP may be a 1988 standard, but it still works quite well today. I was having a conversation with a fellow on another forum who was frustrated at his Android phone. The problem? All this "syncing" wizardry means when he wants to delete a message from his phone, it's gone from his server and any other device that syncs with the server.
    Tell your friend to make use of archiving and/or selective file sync. It will replicate what he wants to do. Archiving "kills" it off the phone, and at home, check All mail. For someone who SERIOUSLY struggled with this when switching like I did, archiving is a more intuitive method IMHO.
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    I'd be interested to know which way of setting up email is least demanding on resources/battery. I realized long ago that I'm not such a vital cog in the machinery of progress that I need email delivered instantly. I understand that some people who run businesses and that sort of thing really need instant email, but I just don't, and it's nothing more than vanity to pretend that I do. Anyone who needs my attention immediately can call or text. So I have no objection to having email collected every 15 minutes or even less frequently. In particular, if I keep Gmail and I have to choose between POP and IMAP/IDLE, which causes the greatest battery drain?
  14. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
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    #289  

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    Here's a question, if BIS email would be an optional extra, say $2 to $5 max, would you pay it? I think I would.
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    Quote Originally Posted by belfastdispatcher View Post
    Here's a question, if BIS email would be an optional extra, say $2 to $5 max, would you pay it? I think I would.
    No I wouldn't but I'm not important and don't need instant email.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omnitech View Post
    No - "ActiveSync" and "Exchange Active Sync" are two different things. In grand Microsoft tradition, they created conflicting/confusing/overlapping product names.

    ActiveSync by itself is the deprecated desktop sync protocol, which was ultimately replaced by Windows Mobile Device Center. (I believe ActiveSync is what Blackberry Desktop uses to sync with Outlook actually.) EAS is the Exchange email/calendar/contacts/etc network sync protocol.
    Desktop Manager 7 actually uses IntelliSync for PC syncing. I don't know what they used for 6 and older, but I think it was proprietary.

    When I think "ActiveSync", I'm strictly thinking of Exchange ActiveSync OTA syncing of Exchange accounts (or, at least those accounts hosted by an Exchange server).

    But I have noticed that a few do seem to assume that "ActiveSync" is supposed to pick up ALL emails in lieu of BIS. And, no, that's not the case.
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    All this discussion and all I want is someone to simply tell me the cleanest way for a dummy to receive and sync two private email accounts, calendars, and contacts.

    Someone (Kevin or BB) give us a simple white paper that walks us through the options.
  18. ssbtech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trelawrence View Post
    For someone who SERIOUSLY struggled with this when switching like I did, archiving is a more intuitive method IMHO.
    It's certainly not the simplest method. When Outlook checks a POP email account, files are downloaded and if you have message rules specified, they're sorted into appropriate folders and stay there. Done. That's all there is to it. Simply checking the mail sorts and "archives" it.
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  19. felixlives's Avatar
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    man this thread was so damn confusing everyone seems to be saying one thing or the other can somebody please tell me simple like i am an ***** if you would :
    when i get an email , will it arrive at my desktop and phone at the same time yes or no ??
  20. ssbtech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by felixlives View Post
    if you would :
    when i get an email , will it arrive at my desktop and phone at the same time yes or no ??
    It depends on how your desktop and phone are configured.
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    Quote Originally Posted by felixlives View Post
    man this thread was so damn confusing everyone seems to be saying one thing or the other can somebody please tell me simple like i am an ***** if you would :
    when i get an email , will it arrive at my desktop and phone at the same time yes or no ??
    "maybe" is really the best answer that anyone could give, it won't be like it was for the old blackberry, but depending on your setup they may appear close together, though perhaps not in sync, as in one may not appear as read on both devices.
  22. Omnitech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssbtech View Post
    And instead of keeping their own platform going (BIS), they're relying on competing products to deliver email to BlackBerry phones.
    There are actually some very good competitive reasons why that is a good idea for them to do, I believe they have been mentioned in this thread several times. (Short version: carrier buy-in/costs, more insulation from BIS outages which have been PR disasters for RIM, etc.)

    Quote Originally Posted by ssbtech View Post
    POP3's "Leave a copy on the server" feature works just fine.
    I grant you that it may work fine for you at the moment with your current provider and email client, but POP3 was never designed to do that, so there are a lot of idiosyncracies in different POP3 implementations on the server and client side that can cause those kludges to either fail randomly or not work at all depending on the systems being used.

    Quote Originally Posted by ssbtech View Post
    As I get emails throughout the day on my phone and laptop, I can read them and delete them so they don't clutter up my devices, but they're all still there to look at when I get home.[...]

    Believe it or not, there are plenty of people (including tech geeks like myself) who do not want to use cloud storage.

    There are ways to accomplish those things without using POP3, one mentioned here is the "archiving" feature that many email clients and servers offer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by qbnkelt View Post
    Well that makes me happy!!! My main accounts are hotmail except for one gmail for my SGIII and my ancient, original, aol.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    me too!

    apart from the AOL part
    and the gmail account.
    yeah i'm too lazy to remember more then one address
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  24. Omnitech's Avatar
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    To those people asking for "a short answer", the only way you can get that is to specify which email provider you are using.

    In short, most of the email providers I mentioned in my large post (Gmail, Yahoo, Microsoft, Fastmail) have the capability to support "push" or "fast notification" of new messages with BB10, as long as it is correctly configured on both sides. (Yahoo is an exception to that because they insist on doing things in a proprietary way.)

    It may use more battery than what you are used to with BIS, however. I'm not in a position to estimate exactly how much, BB10 devices are not available to regular customers in the USA yet.
    Last edited by Omnitech; 03-03-2013 at 01:54 AM. Reason: Corrected info re: Yahoo
  25. mike-berry's Avatar
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    BB10 does not have push email?-img_00000003.jpg

    I got push...
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