[princesultan]

Guess you're gonna' have to live with that doubt.

if you made all that money, good on you. but if there's 1 thing i've learned in business is to NEVER listen to the person who always spits out figures on how much they made.

[brucep1]

And yet the stock price of RIMM continues to go up. There clearly has been a turnaround, so go ahead and continue to sit on the side and criticize without facts. I will continue to make money on the stock.

The "facts" you are going with here are a week of increased stock price after it was completely devastated in the market for the previous year. But then again, at this point, any positive sign for the stock price is a huge win compared to what was happening with it.

[brucep1]

RIM stock isnt dropping currently, not in the big picture. sure they are down today, but thats purely because they were inflated yesterday on the samsung news.

When it comes to the big picture, I'm not so sure...

RIM Stock Hammered After Second Quarter Profit Falls 59%

RIM’s Stock Falls Below Book Value on BlackBerry Sales Slump - Businessweek

[Thunderbuck]

The "facts" you are going with here are a week of increased stock price after it was completely devastated in the market for the previous year. But then again, at this point, any positive sign for the stock price is a huge win compared to what was happening with it.

One's point of view is going to depend share price he bought in at.

I got in at $17, on the way down. I'm now showing a modest profit and expect that to grow. I think RIM's got a handle on its bad news problem, and that shareholders and analysts will be happy with pending management changes.

Yes, I'm optimistic. Yes, I could be wrong.

[BBThemes]

RIMM isn't dropping, not in the "big picture." You really have got to be kidding me. It is down 75% in the last year, 25% in the last 3 months, only in the last month is it "up" 5%, still 70% down from a year ago. One month is not the big picture at all, in any other time period it is massively DOWN and dropping.

so you agree its slowly been going back up over the last month, yet that still is considered dropping? im very confused. it dropped yes, but as its going up currently, that`d mean it isnt dropping. we can look back on the past if ya want, but that wont make any difference to whats happening now.

[Economist101]

The "facts" you are going with here are a week of increased stock price after it was completely devastated in the market for the previous year. But then again, at this point, any positive sign for the stock price is a huge win compared to what was happening with it.

As the saying goes, you can't fall off the floor.

[anon(757282)]

As the saying goes, you can't fall off the floor.

You obviously didn't go to college in the Southeastern Conference where falling off the floor is a very proud tradition!

Stock has been rising since mid December. 2011 was a wasteland. But we are in a new year and the trend is clearly up, modestly but steadily.

[OMGitworks]

so you agree its slowly been going back up over the last month, yet that still is considered dropping? im very confused. it dropped yes, but as its going up currently, that`d mean it isnt dropping. we can look back on the past if ya want, but that wont make any difference to whats happening now.

You left out the the rest of your argument and my point about the use of "big picture" not "currently" as you now suggest. There is a big difference between the two. Looking at only a 30 day slice of a long time publically traded company is not the "big picture." The 200 moving day average is $22.06. If and when it gets there I would consider it on the way up. I think RIMM will go up, but it is very unrealistic to say in "the big picture" RIMM is going back up when the 1 year moving average is north of $42.00 and it is down 75% for a year and abut 50% in the last 6 months.

[anon(757282)]

You left out the the rest of your argument and my point about the use of "big picture" not "currently" as you now suggest. There is a big difference between the two. Looking at only a 30 day slice of a long time publically traded company is not the "big picture." The 200 moving day average is $22.06. If and when it gets there I would consider it on the way up. I think RIMM will go up, but it is very unrealistic to say in "the big picture" RIMM is going back up when the 1 year moving average is north of $42.00 and it is down 75% for a year and abut 50% in the last 6 months.

The big picture has nothing to do with old moving average numbers. The big picture is that there has been a change at RIM. They are delivering and expected to continue to deliver on their plan. The old stock price numbers will continue to drag down the average, but the corner has been turned. Moving averages are 1 data point to consider but the turnaround at RIM and actions in December and forward will be far more important than historic data.

RIM is delivering and advertising and generally acting like they get the urgency. Stock prices have been rising and will continue to do so if RIM continues to deliver. Even after "buyout" rumors disappear the trend is up. Next big test is delivery of OS2 for the PlayBook in February. Then will be the phones RIM shows at the mobile conference. Keep watching your moving averages, meanwhile RIMM will continue to rise in stock price.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

The big picture has nothing to do with old moving average numbers. The big picture is that there has been a change at RIM. They are delivering and expected to continue to deliver on their plan.

I must have missed something?

[timberdc]

I must have missed something?

Their plan is to not deliver anything. So far, so good!

[Thunderbuck]

I must have missed something?

Clearly.

Behavior at RIM changed markedly in October. There was a strong sense of anxiety, even panic leading up to the anticipated PB OS 2.0 release, but there was a lot of sloppiness to go along with it. Lots of missed deadlines and broken promises.

Suddenly, it was like a full-stop. PB OS 2.0 pushed back to February, BB10 pushed back to Q3. Half-billion writedown on PB inventory. It very much looks like people who had been operating in fantasyland were quickly jolted back to reality.

Since then we've had the BBX branding debacle and that's been pretty much it for bad news (if we don't count the two bozos who grounded an Air Canada flight to China in December; I won't hold the whole company responsible for the behavior of a couple of idiots).

As far as GOOD news is concerned, we've seen targets actually met, a promised management review underway and on schedule, and new developer support announced.

So, yes, I'd say a lot HAS changed.

[brucep1]

As far as GOOD news is concerned, we've seen targets actually met, a promised management review underway and on schedule, and new developer support announced.

So, yes, I'd say a lot HAS changed.

What targets have been met? As far as you know BB10 is getting pushed back to Q3 2013.

They pushed back a software release date, then show it at CES, and suddenly "a lot HAS changed."

Some people on here will drink the RIM kool aid until there isn't any left. RIM pushes the software update back 3 times, I REPEAT 3 TIMES, and when they push it back a 4th time, "a lot HAS changed." Unbelievable.

[brucep1]

I must have missed something?

We all did. The key here is in the timing of release dates. If you push back release dates really far, sure people will be angry initially but after a while they'll forget all about it. It's genius really.

Then again, I guess its better than missing a couple of release dates.

[OMGitworks]

I must have missed something?

Yes you missed the part where some people believe what they want to believe despite a year's worth of missed deadlines and broken promises. THIS time it will be different

I agree it appears RIM is trying to get back on track, but in no way, whatsoever, believe that it is a done deal or that the ship has been righted or that the big picture has changed. Let's see what happens with the new phones, that is MUCH more important than OS 2.0 at this point, esp since it seems Apple will be launching iPad 3 in March. Its the phones that matter and they are on the same slippery slope with missed deadlines that we saw with the PB, hopefully that will change.

[OMGitworks]

We all did. The key here is in the timing of release dates. If you push back release dates really far, sure people will be angry initially but after a while they'll forget all about it. It's genius really.

Then again, I guess its better than missing a couple of release dates.

Genius to push back your tablet OS update until iPad 3 is imminent. Genius to push back your new phones a year. Genius to release a BB tablet without native e-mail or BBM, or any PIM. Genius to not have a decent PDF reader, Skype, Netflix, real bluetooth or USB functionality. More genius. Genius to not notice BBX was already taken and you would have to re-brand a major new initiative - my personal favorite. All the time market share and opportunity is pouring thru RIM's hands and on to the floor.

It is a fast paced business environment. Every time you push back a release date you lose a chance to sell a product. They don't "forget all about it", they go out and buy something else. 99.99% of consumers buy what is currently available and don't wait for company's like RIM to release something. Even those loyal customers get burned out when they actually wait (usually based on a promise from one of the CEO's) only to be told to wait a little longer. That's hardly genius, just look at the stock price and the bashing RIM has taken int eh press to see what it really is.

[tchocky77]

Oh, I have AAPL, and they have allowed me to live the life I was born to live. Read my posts where I borrowed money from my dear Mother to buy Apple stock at a time when everybody was looking to dump their shares. I have every confidence that RIMM will make me as proud as Apple has.

Then it's a good thing you're investing your mom's money rather than your own.

[Superfly_FR]

and ... after a long while, and a passionated reading of a lot of args, pro and cons ...
I'll just pinpoint that the "around" 30% of "yes", whatever reason can be applied to this statement is a solid third, as it stayed constant or such from the beginning of this thread.

P.S: hands clap for this discussion (that does not belongs to me any way) ... and over 9K views, since ... February 2011, still hitting the top page.
I wish financial and marketing students (analysts ?) may be inspired by all of your contributions: thanks !

[Thunderbuck]

Genius to push back your tablet OS update until iPad 3 is imminent. Genius to push back your new phones a year. Genius to release a BB tablet without native e-mail or BBM, or any PIM. Genius to not have a decent PDF reader, Skype, Netflix, real bluetooth or USB functionality. More genius. Genius to not notice BBX was already taken and you would have to re-brand a major new initiative - my personal favorite. All the time market share and opportunity is pouring thru RIM's hands and on to the floor.

It is a fast paced business environment. Every time you push back a release date you lose a chance to sell a product. They don't "forget all about it", they go out and buy something else. 99.99% of consumers buy what is currently available and don't wait for company's like RIM to release something. Even those loyal customers get burned out when they actually wait (usually based on a promise from one of the CEO's) only to be told to wait a little longer. That's hardly genius, just look at the stock price and the bashing RIM has taken int eh press to see what it really is.

I don't get what you're saying here. Should RIM stay with unrealistic release targets? We all know where that's gotten them.

[Economist101]

I don't get what you're saying here. Should RIM stay with unrealistic release targets? We all know where that's gotten them.

I think the argument isn't that RIM should stick with unrealistic release targets, but rather that it shouldn't offer unrealistic release targets in the first place. This ozone of the advantages of not announcing products until they're ready; though it won't stop anyone from claiming a product was in fact "delayed," it does reduce the likelihood that targets will be missed, at least publicly.

Also, let's keep in mind that the initial quote on native email was 60 days, and now we're looking at 300. Disparities like this upset customers and make you look like you don't know your own company, and should be avoided in almost all cases.

[OMGitworks]

I don't get what you're saying here. Should RIM stay with unrealistic release targets? We all know where that's gotten them.

When a CEO of a major corporation says something, you better deliver. They were only "unrealistic" because THEY set them up and told us. We didn't set them, them did and had or should have had the info to properly set realistic, doable deadlines When you don't, stockholders and customers get angry. Over promising and under-delivering is a major problem for RIM and kills confidence. A company the size of RIM should only have a very rare miss on deadlines. Instead it was the norm and continues to be, that shows poor management.

[Thunderbuck]

I think the argument isn't that RIM should stick with unrealistic release targets, but rather that it shouldn't offer unrealistic release targets in the first place. This ozone of the advantages of not announcing products until they're ready; though it won't stop anyone from claiming a product was in fact "delayed," it does reduce the likelihood that targets will be missed, at least publicly.

Also, let's keep in mind that the initial quote on native email was 60 days, and now we're looking at 300. Disparities like this upset customers and make you look like you don't know your own company, and should be avoided in almost all cases.

I agree with all of that. I invested in DECEMBER because it looked to me that somebody intervened in October, and RIM'S execution suddenly improved considerably.

The reason I invested is that if management issues can be resolved, there remain a great many talented people in the company, and a sense of vision. I think RIM not only can be fixed, it's already quietly starting.

[Thunderbuck]

When a CEO of a major corporation says something, you better deliver. They were only "unrealistic" because THEY set them up and told us. We didn't set them, them did and had or should have had the info to properly set realistic, doable deadlines When you don't, stockholders and customers get angry. Over promising and under-delivering is a major problem for RIM and kills confidence. A company the size of RIM should only have a very rare miss on deadlines. Instead it was the norm and continues to be, that shows poor management.

Agreed with all of this, except the "continues to be" part. I think they've fixed that.

[brucep1]

I invested in DECEMBER because it looked to me that somebody intervened in October, and RIM'S execution suddenly improved considerably.

Can you explain how?

[alnamvet68]

Back on topic....I believe with this good news I woke up to this morning, that RIMM, who I have actively supported since its inception, is now going to reward me for my loyalty this week, and quite handsomely, I might add. Whataya' say naysayers, will my RIMM portfolio be worth 10%, 20%, or maybe 30% more by week's end?