[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

Who are these mysterious "major corporations and governments" who have been asking for high-end all-touch BB10 phones and tablets?

I think Major Corporations and Governments look less at BlackBerry's product line and more at their bottom line these days.

They need to KNOW that a company will be there to support their products. Thor throwing up the For Sale sign probably lost them most of their BBOS enterprise customer base that was waiting for BB10. I do think that Chen managed to bring some corporate customers back on board, but this switch to Android and the "commitment" mode for BB10 will probably kill off BlackBerry position in the Enterprise World (Chen is a PR nightmare sometimes). Chen is going to need to make the PRIV and future Android devices (if any) at least profitable with just the consumer market, and build from there. He'll need to stabilize BlackBerry and get them out of this always cutting cost and downsizing to make ends meet business model.

As to format.....I don't think it really matters. Last year everyone taught that the midgrade Classic would be exactly what enterprise wants.... it wasn't. So of course the midgrade all touch LEAP would be what enterprise wanted.... it wasn't.

[Emaderton3]

I think Major Corporations and Governments look less at BlackBerry's product line and more at their bottom line these days.

They need to KNOW that a company will be there to support their products. Thor throwing up the For Sale sign probably lost them most of their BBOS enterprise customer base that was waiting for BB10. I do think that Chen managed to bring some corporate customers back on board, but this switch to Android and the "commitment" mode for BB10 will probably kill off BlackBerry position in the Enterprise World (Chen is a PR nightmare sometimes). Chen is going to need to make the PRIV and future Android devices (if any) at least profitable with just the consumer market, and build from there. He'll need to stabilize BlackBerry and get them out of this always cutting cost and downsizing to make ends meet business model.

As to format.....I don't think it really matters. Last year everyone taught that the midgrade Classic would be exactly what enterprise wants.... it wasn't. So of course the midgrade all touch LEAP would be what enterprise wanted.... it wasn't.

Interesting thought--the consumer market will dictate/influence the business market in phone choice.

That being said, I thought the trend was BYOD? If so, is their enough of a market for BlackBerry phones by companies that buy and issue their own phones to employees?

Posted via CB10

[Troy Tiscareno]

Interesting thought--the consumer market will dictate/influence the business market in phone choice.

That's exactly how we got BYOD in the first place.

That being said, I thought the trend was BYOD?

Yes, it's still the trend, and will continue to be for most companies - and most companies don't need "top secret" security either.

If so, is their enough of a market for BlackBerry phones by companies that buy and issue their own phones to employees?

Obviously not, or BB's sales wouldn't be where they are. Or, to be more correct: the number of phones that could be sold to companies who value higher levels of security over the ability to run apps (and thus choose iOS) is not large enough to sustain BB, even if it could somehow win all of them, and they'll never win all of them.

RIM was successful in the first place because of timing: they had brilliantly come up with a solution for quality email and messaging over slow 2G networks with BBOS phones - many things came together to make the BB the best product for the job and BB was able to take advantage of that and make good profit margins. But RIM (and by that, I largely mean Mike Lazaridis) had tunnel-vision and "Founder's Dilemma" where they believed their solution was the only solution, and that the market would have to work around RIM. It's why they laughed at the iPhone at first - they didn't believe that people would give up PKBs to type on glass, nor did they believe that carriers would invest in faster data technologies (Mike actively discouraged them from doing so, as it would make BIS obsolete). Mike had his brilliant 2G solution, but was unable to accept the realities of a 3G and then a 4G world, and so he and RIM had invested virtually nothing to prepare for those realities. And once the iPhone was released, the market made a hard turn, and RIM, much like the Titanic, was too big, slow, full of bureaucracy and "yes men", and too in denial to turn with it - until after an iceberg had opened a big gash down its hull.

RIM also refused to see BYOD, quality mobile web browsing, apps, camera importance, or the shift in smartphones moving from a business product to a consumer product - and that was all Mike, constantly in denial that anyone would ever accept anything but BIS, emails, and messaging. Mike was never really a businessman, and was out of his depth in the business world, especially in what is arguably the most competitive product segment there has been over the last decade, and without anyone to make him see reality, he steered RIM right into the iceberg, all the while declaring RIM as "unsinkable." The market just won't let you get away with that many mistakes in such a competitive environment without severe punishment, and that's exactly what BB received by both business and consumers alike as they went from 80M active users to less than 25M today (and still falling).

[Ronindan]

That's exactly how we got BYOD in the first place.



Yes, it's still the trend, and will continue to be for most companies - and most companies don't need "top secret" security either.



Obviously not, or BB's sales wouldn't be where they are. Or, to be more correct: the number of phones that could be sold to companies who value higher levels of security over the ability to run apps (and thus choose iOS) is not large enough to sustain BB, even if it could somehow win all of them, and they'll never win all of them.

RIM was successful in the first place because of timing: they had brilliantly come up with a solution for quality email and messaging over slow 2G networks with BBOS phones - many things came together to make the BB the best product for the job and BB was able to take advantage of that and make good profit margins. But RIM (and by that, I largely mean Mike Lazaridis) had tunnel-vision and "Founder's Dilemma" where they believed their solution was the only solution, and that the market would have to work around RIM. It's why they laughed at the iPhone at first - they didn't believe that people would give up PKBs to type on glass, nor did they believe that carriers would invest in faster data technologies (Mike actively discouraged them from doing so, as it would make BIS obsolete). Mike had his brilliant 2G solution, but was unable to accept the realities of a 3G and then a 4G world, and so he and RIM had invested virtually nothing to prepare for those realities. And once the iPhone was released, the market made a hard turn, and RIM, much like the Titanic, was too big, slow, full of bureaucracy and "yes men", and too in denial to turn with it - until after an iceberg had opened a big gash down its hull.

RIM also refused to see BYOD, quality mobile web browsing, apps, camera importance, or the shift in smartphones moving from a business product to a consumer product - and that was all Mike, constantly in denial that anyone would ever accept anything but BIS, emails, and messaging. Mike was never really a businessman, and was out of his depth in the business world, especially in what is arguably the most competitive product segment there has been over the last decade, and without anyone to make him see reality, he steered RIM right into the iceberg, all the while declaring RIM as "unsinkable." The market just won't let you get away with that many mistakes in such a competitive environment without severe punishment, and that's exactly what BB received by both business and consumers alike as they went from 80M active users to less than 25M today (and still falling).

One thing to add as well - BB never really took in what consumers wanted, they focused more on what the carriers want instead. A good example of this was the Storm - if Verizon never asked for it, BB would not have built it even though they were competing against the iphone.

[nt300]

I think Major Corporations and Governments look less at BlackBerry's product line and more at their bottom line these days.

They need to KNOW that a company will be there to support their products. Thor throwing up the For Sale sign probably lost them most of their BBOS enterprise customer base that was waiting for BB10. I do think that Chen managed to bring some corporate customers back on board, but this switch to Android and the "commitment" mode for BB10 will probably kill off BlackBerry position in the Enterprise World (Chen is a PR nightmare sometimes). Chen is going to need to make the PRIV and future Android devices (if any) at least profitable with just the consumer market, and build from there. He'll need to stabilize BlackBerry and get them out of this always cutting cost and downsizing to make ends meet business model.

As to format.....I don't think it really matters. Last year everyone taught that the midgrade Classic would be exactly what enterprise wants.... it wasn't. So of course the midgrade all touch LEAP would be what enterprise wanted.... it wasn't.

Couldn't have said it any better.
Classic is a great device but with old specs. The Leap is a complete joke. That's been proven, as we witness the poor sales.

BlackBerry can't overprice it's hardware because they are called BlackBerry's. Those days are over ATM. They need to come back to reality, and somehow increase its market share. Doing so increases the companies perception. John Chen failed to recapture current BB10 and BOLD customers, that were all looking for a meaningful upgrade. Classic and Leap were "Downgrades" The Passport, being one of the best phones on the planet, wasn't that phone people were looking for, because it was too radical over the top innovative.

A simple Full Touch Passport and/or a Re bagged Z30 v2, with Passport like Spec's would have helped BlackBerry recapture current BB10 customers and NEW Customers.

It's still not too late, but JC has messed up a lot already. And now we have one of the management people spreading false info about the company abandoning BB10 lol,. What a Cluster F.

Rocking a Z30

[Tien-Lin Chang]

When BBRY put their future on an out-sourced OS which they can do little on it (refer to the slow evolution pace since release, any important feature had been added in?) and have to unhook their product to their most important/valuable service (BIS/BES). The future and direction of BBRY had already been messed up before JC arrive. Those out-dated, over-priced devices are not released after JC either.

JC surrender to the trend (which he didn't start it) and find a way might considered "betrayal" by some fans yet that's his job to make the company survive.

[nt300]

JC is responsible for the Low Spec'ed Classic and Leap. That should have been avoided. And in return, release them with better Hardware Specs.

The Leap was the worst device this company ever released. Overpriced and 2012 Spec's. Pathetic. JC claims he is targeting the Enterprise with the Leap. OK.

1) Where are the mysterious high sales of this device?
2) Why does JC claim to be targeting Enterprise, but keeps trying to dip into the Consumer Market? With those old outdated and Overpriced phones (Classic/Leap).

The Leap was a foolish move. A Z30 w/ Passport Spec's should have been released. As I stated above.
Classic just needed better specs for the $499 price tag.

Once again BlackBerry is as clueless as ever. And no an outdated Android OS that has reached end of life won't save this company.

Rocking a Z30

[Tien-Lin Chang]

In BB10 era, only Z10/Q10/Passport are providing relativly ok hardware within the time-frame and the rest are all out-dated and it seems a BBRY tradition cos they spred evenly before and after JC but yes I agreed the whole "mid-range" product line (Q5/Z3/Leap) is a over-priced joke and JC didn't pull the bad call back.

The problem of Priv is not totally being android I feel, yes the OS change cut off the important feature of BB10 (full-touch, hub) so means in three year time BBRY threw their core feature twice (BIS/BES -> Full-touch/Hub). However the hardware itself of Priv also not stand out from the ocean of android flagship devices (beside PKB), the combination of software/hardware makes Priv not a rockstar in andorid field.

If going andorid evantually couldn't save the company is not due to the OS choice, is cos BBRY failed to kill the market with awesome device.

[nt300]

Agreed.

Rocking a Z30

[koebi90]

JC marked the best decision for BlackBerry to date: to delegate the production to a manufacturer (namely Foxconn):
That lead to a flexibility, that allows BlackBerry to gain a margin beginning with the first phone they sell.

They reach their break even point a lot faster in comparison to their own production, where you have a lots of fix costs you have to repay before you actually make money.

The margin per device with foxconn might be smaller compared to a BlackBerry-owned production due to the own margin of foxconn, but BlackBerry actually never reached break even with their "own devices".

That outsourcing move was simply brilliant and saved the whole BlackBerry10 platform.
Thor had to write down 4 billion worth of BlackBerry Z10 in one quarter!!!
Hey didn't overestimate the demand, he just produced the number he needed or assumed he needed for break even.

Outsourcing is the only way BlackBerry can keep BlackBerry10 alive, as long at it fits their own development costs and maybe generate a little profit...

Bottom line: John Chen is best for BlackBerry!

Posted via CB10

[anon(8163415)]

Nothing wrong with outsourcing at all. That's probably the best move John Chen made for the company. The issue I see is they released the wrong BlackBerry 10 phones to begin with, leaving all Z10 and Z30 owners out to dry. The majority would have liked to rather have a full touch Passport phone over the physical keyboard phone. Because physical keyboard devices are a tight niche and will never sell enough to see a dent in market share. John Chen should concede to the fact he made a grave error and to rectify this error, release a high end all touch BB10 phone once and for all.

[koebi90]

Seeing these big layoffs going on at waterloo it seems like the days of BlackBerry10 are counted anyway...

Posted via CB10

[asherN]

2) Why does JC claim to be targeting Enterprise, but keeps trying to dip into the Consumer Market? With those old outdated and Overpriced phones (Classic/Leap).

Because increasingly, that's the same market. 10 years ago, your choice was a 'consumer' flip phone or the 'Enterprise' supplied smart phone, a BlackBerry. No more. Consumers have all but abandoned the feature phone. Users don't want 2 phones but will not give up their Android or iOS phones. I work for a company that is still fairly old school. We supply phones to our employees. I came in with my Nexus 5 and ported my number to our corp account. I have 2 BB users, a Q10 and a Classic. Everybody else gets a iPhone. The Q10 user needs an upgrade. He's getting an iPhone.

"Targeting the Enterprise" is a joke. It's an admission that the devices don't appeal to anybody. We can argue forever that BB10 is a technically superior OS. Technically superior does not always translate into most successful.

[anon(8163415)]

BB10 is technically superior for sure. But its the companies marketing mishaps that caused BB10 to have low sales. Not to mention old specs for overpriced phones. Despite BB10 running fluid on them, people nowadays look for specs as a deciding factor when buying phones. You can thank Android manufacturers for this hardware spec race, all due to Android itself as being a very terrible OS.

[asherN]

No amount of marketing could have saved an OS that does not have an ecosystem. BB was late to the party. And paid for it. The small window of opportunity was between the introduction of the iPhone and the rise of Android. They should have started working on a new OD when the iPod touch came out to be able to compete with Apple when they came out with the iPhone. Alternatively, if they had jumped on Android at that time, they were positioned to be the dominant iPhone alternative and would likely still be today.

[GadgetTravel]

BB10 is technically superior for sure. But its the companies marketing mishaps that caused BB10 to have low sales. Not to mention old specs for overpriced phones. Despite BB10 running fluid on them, people nowadays look for specs as a deciding factor when buying phones. You can thank Android manufacturers for this hardware spec race, all due to Android itself as being a very terrible OS.

The vast majority of people won't buy computers without software. And with a release in 2013 there wasn't going to be software for BB10.

[Ecm]

[WARN]Please discuss the topic -- not those making the comments. If you can't disagree or debate in a civil manner, move on to another thread.[/WARN]

[Bluenoser63]

You're confusing gross margin with net profits.

If a BB10 phone provides $100 gross margin on the device sale itself, but it costs $1000/phone to develop and support the OS, you are still losing a ton of money.

To sustain BB10 long term, you need a full blown developer infrastructure.

To tweak Android, and develop apps for it, you need a tiny fraction of the investment.

Where did you get the information that it costs $1000/phone to develop and support the OS?

[Ecm]

[WARN]Again, please stay on topic. This is a thread about BlackBerry -- not Apple.[/WARN]

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

OP.... I think time just ran out.

[anon(3983727)]

Where did you get the information that it costs $1000/phone to develop and support the OS?

He was just using that as en example.

[Bluenoser63]

He was just using that as en example.

So no basis in reality.

[anon(3983727)]

So no basis in reality.

Probably not. We can try to break down the financial report but I don't think we will really learn enough to make that sort of conclusion. I really don't think they are saving as much as people thing by going android. I think the leaders have no loyalty to the Blackberry name and don't care what the company looks like. They also have no vision or imagination to actually create an innovative product so they are only able to use what is available. Blackberry for me is a useless company now and will no longer have my support.

[Thud Hardsmack]

So no basis in reality.

Examples are not required to contain actual figures. Please note his began with the word "if".

[Bluenoser63]

Probably not. We can try to break down the financial report but I don't think we will really learn enough to make that sort of conclusion. I really don't think they are saving as much as people thing by going android. I think the leaders have no loyalty to the Blackberry name and don't care what the company looks like. They also have no vision or imagination to actually create an innovative product so they are only able to use what is available. Blackberry for me is a useless company now and will no longer have my support.

All the big money has already been spent on developing the OS. All the changes that are being done in Android are no different in costs to maintain the BB10 OS. They are saving some money because they are no longer updating the apps in BB10, but they are spending more money on bringing the HUB and other stuff to Android than they are maintaining a working HUB. I think the BlackBerry experience has show us that they don't have a good handle on the actual costs of development or feasibility of doing it in the first place. No plans and focus will do that. They are probably spending more money on Android migration than they are in BB10 maintaining. The balance sheet will look the same or worse now that they have moved to Android. I expect bigger losses this quarter than last.