[RyanGermann]

With Android M having fingerprint scanner support built-in, I expect we'll see a lot of devices offering Google Pay in a manner similar to Apple Pay.

I think it's still early days for mobile payments and Apple and Google are going to run with it... but does that mean that it's already too late for BlackBerry? With their international secure network and existing relationships with Canadian banks and the respect of financial institutions worldwide (at least as far as security and "not having a take-over-the-world agenda" is concerned).

Current and near-future BB10 devices won't be getting fingerprint scanners... and some in market BB10 devices don't have NFC support... but if we just concentrate on BB10 devices WITH NFC support, can we come up with a process where it can be very convenient to use a BB10 device as an NFC "tap to pay" device?

It could start by adding an icon on the Lock screen of BB10 that is similar to the Camera icon: for the Camera, press and hold it and you can take a picture without unlocking the device... so, similarly, press and hold the "Pay" icon and you enter a special PIN (perhaps different pins for different payment methods) that puts the device into "geo-location-aware NFC payments mode" i.e. if it knows I'm in a Tim Horton's activate the Timmy Me payment feature, but if I'm in a grocery store, activate the general credit card payment process.

It could also show a list of already-registered payment methods from which to choose.

Contrast this with the current method on BB10 which usually involves proprietary Apps making use of the NFC chip:

- Unlock device
- Find the app icon
- launch the app
- dig through the app UI to get to the "pay" screen
- because there is no consistent NFC payment process, it might require a on-screen barcode

All of that can take 10, maybe 20 or even 30 seconds, while standing in line at a cashier.

Contrast with an optimized process

- press and hold "pay" icon on screen
- enter PIN (different than your main device pin, possibly enforced to be so)
- either by PIN entered, or by geolocation, or by choosing from a list of payment methods, the NFC is immediately activated and TAP to pay.

That's not as elegant as Apple Pay, but I'm a bit confused about how Apple Pay chooses the payment method: if the terminal at the shop sends it's "retailer identity" to the handset, then of course automatic vendor-specific payment method choice can occur, eliminating the third step in the process.

I think if all current in market BB10 devices with NFC could get this feature added with an OS update, WOW. I think that would push BB ahead in terms of "people giving a damn about mobile payments".

There is a lot of animosity towards Apple Pay: the retails feel pressure to support it, but Apple's cut is high and they don't like the idea of giving Apple all that power.

BlackBerry could be a facilitator, but it would be the existing banks and payment service networks (Visa, MasterCard etc.) that would simply produce "modules" for BB10 to be part of this, and with BB's hardware security, I think a lot of the banks would be more willing to participate, especially if it cuts Google and Apple out of the equation in terms of these financial institutions entrenching Google and Apple even deeper in "their" business.

BlackBerry's network would be part of the cost, but that could be a fixed cost rather than a percentage of transaction value like Apple and Google want. This could bring a lot of ongoing revenue to BB.

(note there is an initiative like this underway in Canada, but I don't think BB10 devices play into that: http://www.itworldcanada.com/article...provider/94427

and there's this concept page on the website of Canadian cell carrier, Bell: http://www.bell.ca/Mobility/Promotions/Mobile-Payments but it's vague on details vis a vis how easy it will be to use, but the video does say "once the app is open"... so that implies a the first "non starter" process I describe that can be used today but is ungainly at best.

With BlackBerry's partnership with Samsung, I can imagine that Samsung could be 'convinced' to ship a mobile payments capability (that isn't Google Pay that leverages the BlackBerry network) on their devices if there is a sufficient number of worldwide banks on board.

[MikeX74]

Apple Pay lets users add credit/debit cards to PassBook and allows the user to choose a default card. There's an option for the default card to be the one registered to their Apple ID. As for what Apple gets, as far as I know, they get that from the CC companies themselves, rather than the merchant. Their cut is in the neighborhood of 0.5 to 1% of the transaction total.

[RyanGermann]

Apple Pay lets users add credit/debit cards to PassBook and allows the user to choose a default card.

That sounds definitely like something that could be built into BB10 (patents notwithstanding).

There's an option for the default card to be the one registered to their Apple ID.

Likewise, a users BBID can have a credit card or even paypal account associated with it, so that could be analogous on BB10.

As for what Apple gets, as far as I know, they get that from the CC companies themselves, rather than the merchant. Their cut is in the neighborhood of 0.5 to 1% of the transaction total.

Yes, I was aware that it wasn't anything that would cost the merchant anything, but if BB10 introduced a payment process that didn't charge the CC companies per transaction, but rather they paid to use BB network, that would be a very attractive alternative to Google Pay or Apple Pay.

Just confirming as a question to those who know: no data is transmitted FROM the iPhone through the cellular connection or WiFi to... anywhere, right? It's just acting as the NFC chip and the payment terminal transmits the data and receives the approval or rejection, correct?

[Troy Tiscareno]

The technical hurdles are mostly irrelevant - if BB wants to have its own NFC Pay system, then BB will have to forge agreements with all of the banks and credit card processors (Visa, MC, Amex, Discover, etc.) on their own - which means they have to be willing and able to offer those companies something that those companies value, and, much like App Devs, the primary thing those companies value is MARKETSHARE (or, rather, INSTALLED BASE, of which marketshare is a leading indicator).

I suspect that, assuming BB tried at all, that these companies simply aren't interested in supporting another ecosystem with such a small installed base, but I don't know that for sure by any means. But the fact that both Google and Apple worked on this for 4-5 years before they got it rolled out, and even then had a limited roll-out where additional countries were added later, tells me that BB isn't going to have an easy time.

And until those agreements are in place, or at least look to be forthcoming, there's no reason to invest development resources to solve the technical issues - BB certainly can't afford to waste their very limited internal Dev resources on something that they aren't even sure will get used.

[keithhackneysmullet]

I thought BlackBerry already had a pay system in developing countries called bbm money. Why not build a app that installs on pos terminals and just use bbm money through the noc.

Posted via CB10

[RyanGermann]

The technical hurdles are mostly irrelevant - if BB wants to have its own NFC Pay system, then BB will have to forge agreements with all of the banks and credit card processors (Visa, MC, Amex, Discover, etc.) on their own - which means they have to be willing and able to offer those companies something that those companies value, and, much like App Devs, the primary thing those companies value is MARKETSHARE (or, rather, INSTALLED BASE, of which marketshare is a leading indicator).

I suspect that, assuming BB tried at all, that these companies simply aren't interested in supporting another ecosystem with such a small installed base, but I don't know that for sure by any means. But the fact that both Google and Apple worked on this for 4-5 years before they got it rolled out, and even then had a limited roll-out where additional countries were added later, tells me that BB isn't going to have an easy time.

And until those agreements are in place, or at least look to be forthcoming, there's no reason to invest development resources to solve the technical issues - BB certainly can't afford to waste their very limited internal Dev resources on something that they aren't even sure will get used.

I think you're kind of off base on some of the comments: the assertions at how hard it is, what the banks think or want or demand, etc... the links in the first post describe an existing infrastructure arrangement with major national carriers in Canada and major financial institutions who are among the most technologically advanced in the world. So your post just isn't relevant (and would be more so if I thought your points held merit, but they're speculative and in my opinion it's still early days, and BlackBerry has it underway already, so kind of moot).

The issues are on the device, not the banks, not the infrastructure, etc. So if you have any thoughts on a reasonable workflow that could spur adoption by consumers who use BlackBerry 10 devices, that would be relevant. Android is also supported by this initiative, so you could suggest how BlackBerry-created software on Android might work like.

I thought BlackBerry already had a pay system in developing countries called bbm money. Why not build a app that installs on pos terminals and just use bbm money through the noc.

I think that would be hard: A BB10 device appears to a POS terminal as just a Credit Card, backed by an App that sends a packet of data through NFC to the terminal: if BB could coordinate this or open up an API in the OS, it would be relatively easy for banks to hop on and "make BB10 devices appear as their credit card to a POS terminal." I'm not familiar with how BBM money works... do you know of any specific links or documentation?

[lnichols]

Nah general payment via smartphone is too consumer focused for BlackBerry. They don't have the resources to focus on consumer initiatives and work with all those consumer focused banks and retail outlets. If they do look into this, they should only work with corporate card banks and suppliers and stay in their niche.

Posted via Z30

[twiggyrj]

Why not join other members of the industry to create a payment service such as Microsoft, PayPal, Amazon, Jolla etc. It would be beneficial to get other companies on board to build a service that they all could plugin to for offering mobile payments.
Sent from my Luminous Lime Green Lumia 930

[early2bed]

Troy Tiscareno is right - the technical device transaction issues are irrelevant to BlackBerry. Mobile payments systems are about leveraging your existing customer base, retail partners, banking partners, etc. to see who can establish a dominant position in whatever replaces cash, checks, and credit cards going forward.

Whatever you bring to the table, you'd better have a large chunk of something to barter with because they aren't being designed to let everyone in. Even Amazon is scrambling for a partner because they are afraid of being left out of these systems.

[keithhackneysmullet]

Bbm money worked like a wire transfer to bbm contacts. I don't have any real experience with bbm money because it was only available in Indonesia. This is how I would design it.

So imagine the pos terminal for a transaction generates a qr code that the shopper scans using bbm. The qr code contains the payment info and completes the sale. Merchant and shopper both receive a a bbm verifying the transaction. Of course the real problem is getting merchants to buy in to another payment system in reality BlackBerry would have to partner with a established payment partner like western union or one of the credit card issuers.

Posted via CB10

[MikeX74]

That sounds definitely like something that could be built into BB10 (patents notwithstanding).



Likewise, a users BBID can have a credit card or even paypal account associated with it, so that could be analogous on BB10.



Yes, I was aware that it wasn't anything that would cost the merchant anything, but if BB10 introduced a payment process that didn't charge the CC companies per transaction, but rather they paid to use BB network, that would be a very attractive alternative to Google Pay or Apple Pay.

Just confirming as a question to those who know: no data is transmitted FROM the iPhone through the cellular connection or WiFi to... anywhere, right? It's just acting as the NFC chip and the payment terminal transmits the data and receives the approval or rejection, correct?

Right. Any transmission is through the NFC radio.

[StephanieMaks]

There is a lot of animosity towards Apple Pay: the retails feel pressure to support it, but Apple's cut is high and they don't like the idea of giving Apple all that power.

Apple Pay does not cost the merchants anything. Apple takes their relatively tiny cut from the credit card company.

Not sure what 'power' you think it gives Apple, but every transaction is done with an anonymous token so it protects the purchaser from having their CC number exposed. I suppose the 'power' there is it impedes merchants from tracking and profiling the customers via their CC payments?

[StephanieMaks]

Bbm money worked like a wire transfer to bbm contacts. I don't have any real experience with bbm money because it was only available in Indonesia. This is how I would design it.

So imagine the pos terminal for a transaction generates a qr code that the shopper scans using bbm. The qr code contains the payment info and completes the sale. Merchant and shopper both receive a a bbm verifying the transaction. Of course the real problem is getting merchants to buy in to another payment system in reality BlackBerry would have to partner with a established payment partner like western union or one of the credit card issuers.

Posted via CB10

That sounds a little like the Current-C system that Walmart is spearheading. I don't think they've got anything actually deployed yet but they have a consortium of retailers backing it as an alternative to CCs and Apple Pay. They tie it directly to the customer's bank account to cut out the CC companies completely, IIRC.

[RyanGermann]

Apple Pay does not cost the merchants anything. Apple takes their relatively tiny cut from the credit card company.

Not sure what 'power' you think it gives Apple, but every transaction is done with an anonymous token so it protects the purchaser from having their CC number exposed. I suppose the 'power' there is it impedes merchants from tracking and profiling the customers via their CC payments?

The impression I get from the CurrentC group (retailers) is that they are asking their members NOT to support Apple Pay. Best Buy Among others has broken ranks on this. The banks don't like giving Apple a cut, however tiny. A Forbes article expresses retailer concern over Apple having access to transaction data. There is no cost to the retailers, but major retailers are uneasy with it, whether or not they accept it.

The 'power' is Apple potentially having access to purchase information and more leverage to Apple generally: A single vendor 'controlling' mobile payments isn't desirable, regardless of whether purchase tracking is involved (which I didn't mention previously because that's Google's game more so Apple's at this point: there is no evidence that Apple gets more info than the amount and retailer, not what specific items are purchased). Besides, Apple pay only supports iPhones, so it is not pertinent to a discussion of mobile pay enablement on BB10 and Android devices.

At any rate, I personally don't care how wonderful Apple's or Google's payment strategies or technologies are: I'm concerned that the current payment methodology on any device lacking any touch enabled security won't gain traction without improving the user experience. As the Forbes article said �In the end the consumer experience will win out. It always does.�

BlackBerry is already working with a payment system that uses existing credit cards for payments and has the support of the carriers and banks so hopefully there is more BB can do on the handset side to get traction.

[RyanGermann]

Troy Tiscareno is right - the technical device transaction issues are irrelevant to BlackBerry

Agreed: BB just provides the network, but BB10 devices can participate: BB should put effort into APIs on the device for banks to participate (register their credentials with the device) without each bank having a separate app. Because BB is the underdog but has unparalleled on-device security, it may be easier for BB to bring banks on board: they aren't trying to skim a cut off each transaction, just facilitate device use and leverage their network. They'll get revenue from the network, but banks already pay for network access, so the net cost may be negligible or nil. How it works in Canada will be the model that can be used internationally.

Mobile payments systems are about leveraging your existing customer base, retail partners, banking partners, etc. to see who can establish a dominant position in whatever replaces cash, checks, and credit cards going forward.

...but it is not true that there will be only one "mobile payments provider": there already are many. Incumbents are not going to lie down and let Apple 'take over' and even if Apple Pay gains broad adoption, there's no reason why a second or third payment technology that leverages existing NFC payment terminals can't work alongside, just like there are many payment methods supported now. Canada has tap to pay already: BB10 handsets already work, but the on-device UX is ungainly. Apple Pay's success has more to do with the on-device UX than the infrastructure.

Whatever you bring to the table, you'd better have a large chunk of something to barter with because they aren't being designed to let everyone in. Even Amazon is scrambling for a partner because they are afraid of being left out of these systems.

But Troy thinks it's too late for BlackBerry. I don't... Troy is pretty prompt in shooting down most ideas, and in this case, his response doesn't reflect BlackBerry's existing efforts or the reality that BB10 devices ALREADY WORK for mobile NFC payments, whether or not BB has an infrastructure. Physical credit cards may be replaced, but "credit card accounts" aren't being "replaced" by Apple pay and Google Pay: it is just Apple and Google inserting themselves into the transaction to skim off a bit. BlackBerry's platform includes the carriers and the banks. The banks are always going to be involved unless you deposit your money at Apple's bank and the "conventional" banks aren't involved: I bet some would love that idea, but not me... And the role of Apple's influence is moot on Android and WP and BB10 devices anyway, for now: BB users can sit and wait for multi-platform Google Pay, which may only ever be available on OHA devices, or BB can provide hooks into an on-device "payment methods credentials" storage technique, and make an overture to banks, Visa, MasterCard, and Amex w.r.t. facilitating a great payment UX on BB10. I'm advocating for the latter.

[dvarnai]

worst case blackberry could just add paypass/paywave support like google wallet. they wouldnt make money off of it, but it would instantly work worldwide for all bb customers and they wouldnt be late to the game

[sk8er_tor]

For anyone in Canada with TD Canada Trust or PC Financial, you can download the UGO WALLET app. It's an official TD app for NFC payment. Works quite well. They say they're trying to get more banks onboard but who knows.
And best of all, it's a native BB10 app.

[RyanGermann]

For anyone in Canada with TD Canada Trust or PC Financial, you can download the UGO WALLET app. It's an official TD app for NFC payment. Works quite well. They say they're trying to get more banks onboard but who knows.
And best of all, it's a native BB10 app.

I have UGO Wallet on my Z30, but I don't deal with TD or PC Financial for my day-to-day credit card transactions... but you still have to "launch an app" and all the incumbent inconvenience: it needs to be somehow present on the Lock screen, just like Apple Pay, in order to be really convenient. I use the Timmy Me app to pay via NFC and it works, but I have to launch the app, wait for it, then go into the pay feature, then activate the pay feature, then it times out if the clerk doesn't have the payment terminal ready when my device is ready.

Ideally, Timmy Me would be "known" to the payment features of BB10, and when I press and hold... something... it shows me either a list of payment options or it uses the default. I could enter my PIN, choose "Tims" and it's ready. Which is to say, the "payment" bits of Timmy Me would in effect be running in the background... but it would really be a BB10 OS feature that is running, and the retailers or banks or whomever have simply "registered" with the app to be part of it.

[MikeX74]

The impression I get from the CurrentC group (retailers) is that they are asking their members NOT to support Apple Pay. Best Buy Among others has broken ranks on this. The banks don't like giving Apple a cut, however tiny. A Forbes article expresses retailer concern over Apple having access to transaction data. There is no cost to the retailers, but major retailers are uneasy with it, whether or not they accept it.

The 'power' is Apple potentially having access to purchase information and more leverage to Apple generally: A single vendor 'controlling' mobile payments isn't desirable, regardless of whether purchase tracking is involved (which I didn't mention previously because that's Google's game more so Apple's at this point: there is no evidence that Apple gets more info than the amount and retailer, not what specific items are purchased). Besides, Apple pay only supports iPhones, so it is not pertinent to a discussion of mobile pay enablement on BB10 and Android devices.

At any rate, I personally don't care how wonderful Apple's or Google's payment strategies or technologies are: I'm concerned that the current payment methodology on any device lacking any touch enabled security won't gain traction without improving the user experience. As the Forbes article said �In the end the consumer experience will win out. It always does.�

BlackBerry is already working with a payment system that uses existing credit cards for payments and has the support of the carriers and banks so hopefully there is more BB can do on the handset side to get traction.

The CurrentC stores are against NFC payments in general because they involve credit card fees that are deducted from their profits. If ApplePay didn't involve credit cards and tapped into debit accounts like their app does, they'd have been on board from day one.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

Ryan.... it's like Troy said. Nobody wants to "play" with an insignificant player like BlackBerry. We are talking 1% marketshare... and BlackBerry's core market is enterprise so many of those devices would most likely not use some payment system. Never mind the simple fact that if sales don't pickup there wont be any BlackBerry hardware.

While I do agree that BlackBerry's security and communications systems would make a BlackBerry device a great platform. The company just isn't in a position to try this on a global scale. Think they did do some kinda test with BlackBerry Money in a few markets. but I haven't hear how that worked of if they are still using it or not.

[ccbs]

I am no canadian, but from what I get, the carriers are the one calling the shot on NFC mobile payment in Canada. BBRY doesn't really have a chance to grab the control of mobile payment back from the carriers. After all, carriers are their main primary customers and the consumers are really either a second tier or a indirect customers.
Apple, just like what they did initially with iPhone, takes the control of mobile payment into its own hand and cut the carriers out of the system.

[onlybuggin]

I'm convinced the answer here is a partnership with PayPal. Why?

1 the biggest reason is that the infrastructure is already in place and well used. Not to mention that ultimately the method of payment is set up by you inside PayPal; whether to a verified account or to an attached credit/debit card.

2. As for the UI it means a lightweight app on the phone that is triggered when placed in the proximity of the retailer's pay station, enter password or pin and done.

There is no direct access to the customers information and less opportunity for fraud.





Posted via CB10

[Ment]

I am no canadian, but from what I get, the carriers are the one calling the shot on NFC mobile payment in Canada. BBRY doesn't really have a chance to grab the control of mobile payment back from the carriers. After all, carriers are their main primary customers and the consumers are really either a second tier or a indirect customers.
Apple, just like what they did initially with iPhone, takes the control of mobile payment into its own hand and cut the carriers out of the system.

Yeah thats basically it. Via the individual bank aligned NFC sim system, carriers and banks have CC mobile payments locked down which is why its taking so long for Apple Pay to get going in Canada, they don't want to give away that power. In the US there are so many more different banks, card issuers, payment processors you can more easily find willing partners, the problem then being how to scale an reach a large audience.

[app_Developer]

Apple Pay lets users add credit/debit cards to PassBook and allows the user to choose a default card. There's an option for the default card to be the one registered to their Apple ID. As for what Apple gets, as far as I know, they get that from the CC companies themselves, rather than the merchant. Their cut is in the neighborhood of 0.5 to 1% of the transaction total.

The cut actually is nowhere near 0.5%. It is a tiny fraction of that.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[app_Developer]

I'm convinced the answer here is a partnership with PayPal. Why?

1 the biggest reason is that the infrastructure is already in place and well used. Not to mention that ultimately the method of payment is set up by you inside PayPal; whether to a verified account or to an attached credit/debit card.

The thing is the merchant would then have to accept PayPal. Most won't accept this because it's too expensive for them, especially for the small purchases where mobile payments are becoming popular.

2. As for the UI it means a lightweight app on the phone that is triggered when placed in the proximity of the retailer's pay station, enter password or pin and done.

There is no direct access to the customers information and less opportunity for fraud.

No access to customer info is definitely key. The other systems are designed that way also.

I agree that a PIN will work. Banks and payment networks will be fine with that. Users, though, seem to prefer fingerprint at least in our testing.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk