[Loc22]

BB10 market share has now decreased to 0.2%. It's not worth the effort to even pick up the phone.

I'm sorry you are totally off the mark here, BlackBerry 10 market share has nothing to do with this. This is a programme to increase the market share of #BlackBerry devices on both BlackBerry 10 & Android OS.

Posted via CB10

[conite]

I'm sorry you are totally off the mark here, BlackBerry 10 market share has nothing to do with this. This is a programme to increase the market share of #BlackBerry devices on both BlackBerry 10 & Android OS.

Posted via CB10

Disagree.

The banks would need to involve themselves in this venture. They would have absolutely no incentive to do so.

[app_Developer]

I'm sorry you are totally off the mark here, BlackBerry 10 market share has nothing to do with this. This is a programme to increase the market share of #BlackBerry devices on both BlackBerry 10 & Android OS.

Marketshare is the primary thing that matters to any bank that would consider partnering with BlackBerry on this. In rough order of priority here's the top 3 things I would be asking:

1.) How many users can we reach with this payment system?
2.) How many users can we reach with this payment system?
3.) How many users can we reach with this payment system?

[Loc22]

Marketshare is the primary thing that matters to any bank that would consider partnering with BlackBerry on this. In rough order of priority here's the top 3 things I would be asking:

1.) How many users can we reach with this payment system?
2.) How many users can we reach with this payment system?
3.) How many users can we reach with this payment system?

I disagree with you here.

How many users will you be able to reach with this payment system depends on how many customers your bank wants to sign up. It has nothing to do with the number of existing BlackBerry Android and BlackBerry 10 users in the market as they are already not your banks target market.

Posted via CB10

[app_Developer]

I disagree with you here.

How many users will you be able to reach with this payment system depends on how many customers your bank wants to sign up. It has nothing to do with the number of existing BlackBerry Android and BlackBerry 10 users in the market as they are already not your banks target market.

So how many new BB10 customers and transactions can we possibly add when so few people in our target markets use BB10. I don't understand what you are saying.

Banks are integrating with Android Pay because every day we see millions of customers and potential customers buying devices than can use Android Pay.

Banks integrated with Apple Pay because data shows millions of high value (high income and high credit score) customers are buying iPhones that come with Apple Pay.

Now you are saying we should integrate with BB. But why? What do banks get out of this? Where are the customers you think we can attract or retain or steer this way?

[Loc22]

So how many new BB10 customers and transactions can we possibly add when so few people in our target markets use BB10. I don't understand what you are saying.

Banks are integrating with Android Pay because every day we see millions of customers and potential customers buying devices than can use Android Pay.

Banks integrated with Apple Pay because data shows millions of high value (high income and high credit score) customers are buying iPhones that come with Apple Pay.

Now you are saying we should integrate with BB. But why? What do banks get out of this? Where are the customers you think we can attract or retain or steer this way?

I'm not saying to integrate with BlackBerry pay.

Forget about Android Pay, we are not going that route. Forget about Apple Pay we are also not going that rough.

All I'm saying is just go Visa and Mastercard. All they have to do is ;
1. Tell the bank that this phone can act like your Visa Wave and Mastercard Pay Pass.

2. The gimmick is get your customers to sign up a card and buy a phone cheaper at a 12 month interest free instalment scheme.

3. When they sign up the credit card the cost of the phone will be charged for their credit card on a 12 month interest free instalment scheme. This will immediately make this new credit card an active card and revenue generating.

4. Get them to charge their monthly phone bills to this credit card. Again it will increase the revenue of this credit card.

5. If BlackBerry can also provide a stored Value card facility on the same phone so that the user can use to pay for bus and train fare and even pay for their lunch at McDonald's this will increase the viability of not only the phone but additional value to both the user and the bank.

Then again I think you again still thinking of Apple Pay, Android Pay or BlackBerry Pay. Which in this discussion is irrelevant.

Posted via CB10

[app_Developer]

I'm not saying to integrate with BlackBerry pay.

Forget about Android Pay, we are not going that route. Forget about Apple Pay we are also not going that rough.

You keep saying it's not the same as Android Pay. Yet #1 below, requires exactly the same integration we had to do to support Apple and Android Pay. It's exactly the same type of provisioning, authorization, and acceptance integration required for any devices that use PayPass or Wave. And all of the same oversight work.

All I'm saying is just go Visa and Mastercard. All they have to do is ;
1. Tell the bank that this phone can act like your Visa Wave and Mastercard Pay Pass.

That requires that we have to be able to provision accounts and tokens to the device. It also requires that we be able to manage returns and disputes and all the other things that are required by our agreements with the payment networks and the laws of various states, provinces and countries different countries. That is a major integration effort. We don't just call our buddy at Visa and say "hey, dude, you cool with turning on Visa accounts on BB10 phones? yeah, cool, can you magically authenticate our customers and then provision tokens to those devices for those accounts that are in good standing, have verified ownership, etc.? Cool, and maybe a large pepperoni pizza while you're at it? Oh, and if a customer has trouble with any of this, we're just going to have them call you, OK?"

2. The gimmick is get your customers to sign up a card and buy a phone cheaper at a 12 month interest free instalment scheme.

Let's say bank A offered 12 month interest free on a Passport with a new card signup. And Bank B offered interest free financing on an Galaxy S7. Who do you think will acquire more new customers?

Banks offer incentives for new accounts all the time. We offer airline points for example, but we offer them for airlines that most people actually fly. Imagine if we offered 100,000 travel points, but the points were only good on some obscure airline with 1% marketshare? Or some hotel chain with 16 motels in East Kansas that no one has ever heard of? Would that be smart?

3. When they sign up the credit card the cost of the phone will be charged for their credit card on a 12 month interest free instalment scheme. This will immediately make this new credit card an active card and revenue generating.

Again, why not just offer iPhones or Samsung phones this way? It would attract more new customers.

4. Get them to charge their monthly phone bills to this credit card. Again it will increase the revenue of this credit card.

This requires that the phone companies accept card payments. Some do, some don't. For the ones that do, we will get much more revenue if we promote the payment of all their bills by card, not just a handful of BB10 customers.

5. If BlackBerry can also provide a stored Value card facility on the same phone so that the user can use to pay for bus and train fare and even pay for their lunch at McDonald's this will increase the viability of not only the phone but additional value to both the user and the bank.

Again, this requires integration with banks. This is integration that is already being done with Google and Apple. So why would we want to spend additional, incremental investment on the same type of integration with BlackBerry?

It doesn't matter if you call it BlackBerry Pay or Lemon-flavored Orangutan Cake, it's still integration and investment that banks would have to make to provision accounts/tokens and properly and legally process payments. This stuff costs real money.

You must have users for this to make any financial sense. You cannot avoid this very simple fact.

[Loc22]

You keep saying it's not the same as Android Pay. Yet #1 below, requires exactly the same integration we had to do to support Apple and Android Pay. It's exactly the same type of provisioning, authorization, and acceptance integration required for any devices that use PayPass or Wave. And all of the same oversight work.



That requires that we have to be able to provision accounts and tokens to the device. It also requires that we be able to manage returns and disputes and all the other things that are required by our agreements with the payment networks and the laws of various states, provinces and countries different countries. That is a major integration effort. We don't just call our buddy at Visa and say "hey, dude, you cool with turning on Visa accounts on BB10 phones? yeah, cool, can you magically authenticate our customers and then provision tokens to those devices for those accounts that are in good standing, have verified ownership, etc.? Cool, and maybe a large pepperoni pizza while you're at it? Oh, and if a customer has trouble with any of this, we're just going to have them call you, OK?"



Let's say bank A offered 12 month interest free on a Passport with a new card signup. And Bank B offered interest free financing on an Galaxy S7. Who do you think will acquire more new customers?

Banks offer incentives for new accounts all the time. We offer airline points for example, but we offer them for airlines that most people actually fly. Imagine if we offered 100,000 travel points, but the points were only good on some obscure airline with 1% marketshare? Or some hotel chain with 16 motels in East Kansas that no one has ever heard of? Would that be smart?




Again, why not just offer iPhones or Samsung phones this way? It would attract more new customers.



This requires that the phone companies accept card payments. Some do, some don't. For the ones that do, we will get much more revenue if we promote the payment of all their bills by card, not just a handful of BB10 customers.



Again, this requires integration with banks. This is integration that is already being done with Google and Apple. So why would we want to spend additional, incremental investment on the same type of integration with BlackBerry?

It doesn't matter if you call it BlackBerry Pay or Lemon-flavored Orangutan Cake, it's still integration and investment that banks would have to make to provision accounts/tokens and properly and legally process payments. This stuff costs real money.

You must have users for this to make any financial sense. You cannot avoid this very simple fact.

Again I'm saying BlackBerry will need to follow the requirements set by the banks, Visa & Mastercard so there will be little or no integration required. Just follow what is currently being used.

Testing to ensure if it is properly done? Yes, I agree.

Provision of bin numbers, account numbers and the token is the process of getting the person in charge of it to allocate the numbers. Yes, I also agree that the tokens need to be inserted and that is just a matter of putting in the key required by the bank officer. What's so difficult?


Posted via CB10

[app_Developer]

Again I'm saying BlackBerry will need to follow the requirements set by the banks, Visa & Mastercard so there will be little or no integration required. Just follow what is currently being used.

Testing to ensure if it is properly done? Yes, I agree.

Provision of bin numbers, account numbers and the token is the process of getting the person in charge of it to allocate the numbers. Yes, I also agree that the tokens need to be inserted and that is just a matter of putting in the key required by the bank officer. What's so difficult?

Ok, let's start with the basics. In your right hand is a Citi Visa card. In your left hand is a BB10 phone.

How are you going to provision the account and token(s) to your phone without your phone talking to Citi? Mind you, this is the just the first of a few different integration points. But explain to me just this first step.

[Elephant_Canyon]

Again I'm saying BlackBerry will need to follow the requirements set by the banks, Visa & Mastercard so there will be little or no integration required. Just follow what is currently being used.

Testing to ensure if it is properly done? Yes, I agree.

Provision of bin numbers, account numbers and the token is the process of getting the person in charge of it to allocate the numbers. Yes, I also agree that the tokens need to be inserted and that is just a matter of putting in the key required by the bank officer. What's so difficult?

Just stop. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, and app_Developer works in the mobile payments industry, doing the exact thing you are trying (unsuccessfully, because you have no idea what you're talking about) to describe.

[togarika]

Ok, let's start with the basics. In your right hand is a Citi Visa card. In your left hand is a BB10 phone.

How are you going to provision the account and token(s) to your phone without your phone talking to Citi? Mind you, this is the just the first of a few different integration points. But explain to me just this first step.

BlackBerry integrates with Visa and Visa deals with the banks.

BlackBerry BB10 forever

[app_Developer]

BlackBerry integrates with Visa and Visa deals with the banks.

Payments don't work that way. Fraud costs would be insanely high if it worked that simply.

To provision an account to a device and then successfully make an actual payment to an actual merchant and service that transaction (and manage the risk and do all of this legally), the issuer must be involved.

You'll notice that the tap to pay solutions on BB10 now all work with specific banks (and specific carriers, but that's a different issue)

Believe me, Apple would have loved it if that weren't true, because they could have rolled out AP so much faster. If all they had to do was integrate with Visa/MC, they would have been done 3 years ago. In fact, they could have even had this working in the 5S potentially.

[bobshine]

Payments don't work that way. Fraud costs would be insanely high if it worked that simply.

To provision an account to a device and then successfully make an actual payment to an actual merchant and service that transaction (and manage the risk and do all of this legally), the issuer must be involved.

You'll notice that the tap to pay solutions on BB10 now all work with specific banks (and specific carriers, but that's a different issue)

Believe me, Apple would have loved it if that weren't true, because they could have rolled out AP so much faster. If all they had to do was integrate with Visa/MC, they would have been done 3 years ago. In fact, they could have even had this working in the 5S potentially.

Actually I think Apple tried to roll out their own payment system without the banks... and with all the billions they have, they couldn't do it. They resigned to signing deals with banks one market at a time... something that we are not used to see Apple doing!

But Apple was obviously able to do something where BB failed: they got banks in each market to go by "their terms"... meaning that banks has to share part of their margin with Apple and use the Apple Pay app.

That's where BB failed cause they were signing deals individually with one bank at a time... and not only that, as it's not complicated enough, they implicated the carriers too! In Canada, that's 6 major banks, 3 major carriers, 18 deals to sign!

[Ronindan]

BlackBerry integrates with Visa and Visa deals with the banks.

BlackBerry BB10 forever

again why would visa and Mastercard do this. when their customers are using ios and Android smart phones.

[Loc22]

Payments don't work that way. Fraud costs would be insanely high if it worked that simply.

To provision an account to a device and then successfully make an actual payment to an actual merchant and service that transaction (and manage the risk and do all of this legally), the issuer must be involved.

You'll notice that the tap to pay solutions on BB10 now all work with specific banks (and specific carriers, but that's a different issue)

Believe me, Apple would have loved it if that weren't true, because they could have rolled out AP so much faster. If all they had to do was integrate with Visa/MC, they would have been done 3 years ago. In fact, they could have even had this working in the 5S potentially.

Stop complicating the issue here.

1. If you have a Visa Wave card in your hand how does a carrier come in to the picture? Thus using the same principle, if we only use the NFC Chip on the back of the device just like how the Visa card does it how then does the carrier come in to the picture.

2. You don't have to worry able fraud as it would be the same as any other card transactions from that issuing bank. Why would it be different just because the chip look different but works the same size?

Yes, you are right when you say that BlackBerry has to work with the banks individually. This has to be a deal signed between BlackBerry and the banks individually.

Where does BlackBerry have an edge over Apple Pay? BlackBerry don't have to take a cut of the bank's revenue. It's best to let the bank earn what they are supposed to earn and BlackBerry concentrate on it's core business of selling devices & software solutions.

Their margins from the sales of these devices should be enough to keep them going. The reason being they have worked out the pricing and now the sales are coming in via the banks.

Posted via CB10

[Loc22]

Ok, let's start with the basics. In your right hand is a Citi Visa card. In your left hand is a BB10 phone.

How are you going to provision the account and token(s) to your phone without your phone talking to Citi? Mind you, this is the just the first of a few different integration points. But explain to me just this first step.

If I have a Citi Visa card in my right hand and a BlackBerry 10 phone in my left hand they will be 2 different cards with 2 different bin range and needless to say 2 separate tokens to be verified.

My BlackBerry 10 phone doesn't need to talk to Citi for the transaction. The merchant's terminal will do the work just fine. This is because both the Citi Visa and probably a Citi Visa M that is installed in my BlackBerry 10 or even my BlackBerry Priv will work the same way as my Citi Visa card in my right hand.

Posted via CB10

[Loc22]

Just stop. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, and app_Developer works in the mobile payments industry, doing the exact thing you are trying (unsuccessfully, because you have no idea what you're talking about) to describe.

Unfortunately I believe you have no idea what I'm talking about.

Posted via CB10

[app_Developer]

If I have a Citi Visa card in my right hand and a BlackBerry 10 phone in my left hand they will be 2 different cards with 2 different bin range and needless to say 2 separate tokens to be verified.

My BlackBerry 10 phone doesn't need to talk to Citi for the transaction. The merchant's terminal will do the work just fine. This is because both the Citi Visa and probably a Citi Visa M that is installed in my BlackBerry 10 or even my BlackBerry Priv will work the same way as my Citi Visa card in my right hand.

You completely avoided the question. How does the token end up in your phone to begin with? Start with step 1.

[app_Developer]

Stop complicating the issue here.

I'm introducing facts so that you and others will understand why banks will not even begin to entertain this idea. It's too expensive. The actual expense is in the details that you are avoiding.

1. If you have a Visa Wave card in your hand how does a carrier come in to the picture? Thus using the same principle, if we only use the NFC Chip on the back of the device just like how the Visa card does it how then does the carrier come in to the picture.

Look at the existing payment apps for BB10. They require carrier integration. The reason is because they use the SE on the SIM itself, so carriers are part of the provisioning process. See the RBC app as an example of this. This was also how softcard worked.

Carriers are obviously not involved in physical cards. We're talking about phones here I thought. Apple Pay and Android Pay do not require this, of course. I"m talking about existing BB10 solutions here.

2. You don't have to worry able fraud as it would be the same as any other card transactions from that issuing bank. Why would it be different just because the chip look different but works the same size?

Its completely different because tap to pay transactions are considered card present transactions. If you don't control provisioning, you've effectively created a card duplicator. This is why issuers are part of the provisioning process.

Yes, you are right when you say that BlackBerry has to work with the banks individually. This has to be a deal signed between BlackBerry and the banks individually.

Thank you. So let's get back to the actual question: Why on earth would all these banks want to spend money on this? That's the big question no one here has answered still.

Where does BlackBerry have an edge over Apple Pay? BlackBerry don't have to take a cut of the bank's revenue. It's best to let the bank earn what they are supposed to earn and BlackBerry concentrate on it's core business of selling devices & software solutions.

How does that make up for the fact that BlackBerry has such a small number of users?

[app_Developer]

Actually I think Apple tried to roll out their own payment system without the banks... and with all the billions they have, they couldn't do it. They resigned to signing deals with banks one market at a time... something that we are not used to see Apple doing!

Yes, of course they tried to bypass us early. And they cut the carriers out early also (that part worked). There are technical and legal reasons why they couldn't cut the issuers out, which Apple learned along the way.

But Apple was obviously able to do something where BB failed: they got banks in each market to go by "their terms"... meaning that banks has to share part of their margin with Apple and use the Apple Pay app.

That's where BB failed cause they were signing deals individually with one bank at a time... and not only that, as it's not complicated enough, they implicated the carriers too! In Canada, that's 6 major banks, 3 major carriers, 18 deals to sign!

18 is right. That could not have scaled worldwide. Cutting the carriers out at least made the problem a little more tractable.

Apple had the power of lots of very high value customers around the world. So again, trying to bring this conversation back to the point: BlackBerry does not have a lot of customers. That makes it very hard to sign any deals outside of Canada.

[Loc22]

You completely avoided the question. How does the token end up in your phone to begin with? Start with step 1.

How do you get the token on the card?

Posted via CB10

[Loc22]

I'm introducing facts so that you and others will understand why banks will not even begin to entertain this idea. It's too expensive. The actual expense is in the details that you are avoiding.



Look at the existing payment apps for BB10. They require carrier integration. The reason is because they use the SE on the SIM itself, so carriers are part of the provisioning process. See the RBC app as an example of this. This was also how softcard worked.

Carriers are obviously not involved in physical cards. We're talking about phones here I thought. Apple Pay and Android Pay do not require this, of course. I"m talking about existing BB10 solutions here.



Its completely different because tap to pay transactions are considered card present transactions. If you don't control provisioning, you've effectively created a card duplicator. This is why issuers are part of the provisioning process.



Thank you. So let's get back to the actual question: Why on earth would all these banks want to spend money on this? That's the big question no one here has answered still.



How does that make up for the fact that BlackBerry has such a small number of users?

BlackBerry has a small customers Base anywhere round the same is an advantage. This means that BlackBerry has a bigger market potential. Most people just think that BlackBerry has already closed down years ago but they didn't know that BlackBerry is still around.

This will open their eyes and let them give it a try.

Posted via CB10

[Loc22]

Yes, of course they tried to bypass us early. And they cut the carriers out early also (that part worked). There are technical and legal reasons why they couldn't cut the issuers out, which Apple learned along the way.



18 is right. That could not have scaled worldwide. Cutting the carriers out at least made the problem a little more tractable.

Apple had the power of lots of very high value customers around the world. So again, trying to bring this conversation back to the point: BlackBerry does not have a lot of customers. That makes it very hard to sign any deals outside of Canada.

This is an advantage because most people don't have a BlackBerry. So the bank has a wider target market making it easier for them to sell cards to.

Especially when the potential customers is using an Android phone he or she can get back all the Android apps that they have been using previously even know they choose to get the Priv or the Passport.


Posted via CB10

[Ronindan]

How do you get the token on the card?

Posted via CB10

Why don't you tell us, since you stated on your original post that "I am in the payment industry for 8 years"?

[Ronindan]

BlackBerry has a small customers Base anywhere round the same is an advantage. This means that BlackBerry has a bigger market potential. Most people just think that BlackBerry has already closed down years ago but they didn't know that BlackBerry is still around.

This will open their eyes and let them give it a try.

Posted via CB10

People know about about blackberry, but they don't care. Even if they don't know about blackberry but was told otherwise they still don't care. That why bb has 0.2 % the global market share.

Even here in cb, you will have bb fans claiming that they spoke to a friend, coworker, family member or stranger and that person said "I did not know blackberry still makes phones, etc...." But if you ask that poster did that person - who was not aware bb still makes phones - bought a blackberry after being informed? And the answer is always - "No"