[conite]

This is the oversimplified logic that people like to use. It's very frustrating.

Speaking as a simpleton, I fail to see a better example in the world today.

Microsoft, a company that tried to make a go after Apple and Android were established with their respective ecosystems, spent ungodly amounts of money on wooing developers, marketing, and buying hardware manufacturers, could not gain any traction at all.

Can you come up with as compelling a counter example?

[Aju]

But BlackBerry tried and failed BEFORE Microsoft did. If anything, MS should have learned their lesson from BlackBerry's failure.

Passport SE, "The BlockBerry" - Cricket Wireless

Blackberry and advertising??? Guess u r from other world!
And nothing gets right from first attempt if u meant to say about their launch marketing. Persistence and patience are the key to success!

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[Aju]

Speaking as a simpleton, I fail to see a better example in the world today.

Microsoft, a company that tried to make a go after Apple and Android were established with their respective ecosystems, spent ungodly amounts of money on wooing developers, marketing, and buying hardware manufacturers, could not gain any traction at all.

Can you come up with as compelling a counter example?

So was Apple or Samsung successful right from their beginning?? If the tries microsoft did had been done by BlackBerry, I strongly believes they would surely had a better market strength by now.
Bb10 has the potential and that magnetic strength except the app power. If BlackBerry could bring that too somehow, we would be talking about some other topic now...maybe how much apple are loosing to BlackBerry or mayb how much samsung is struggling now...

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[conite]

So was Apple or Samsung successful right from their beginning?? If the tries microsoft did had been done by BlackBerry, I strongly believes they would surely had a better market strength by now.
Bb10 has the potential and that magnetic strength except the app power. If BlackBerry could bring that too somehow, we would be talking about some other topic now...maybe how much apple are loosing to BlackBerry or mayb how much samsung is struggling now...

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Apple and Android ecosystems were well established before BB10 came along (3 years too late).

Major developers made it clear that 2 ecosystems was optimal.

[Aju]

Apple and Android ecosystems were well established before BB10 came along (3 years too late).

Major developers made it clear that 2 ecosystems was optimal.

I understand what u try to say. Even if developers had decided it, BlackBerry could have brought a change to it if they were persistent in their efforts, all those die hard fans and all those earlier die hards would have stood with them. Everybody was waiting to check if BlackBerry is consistent with their words or gona leave them half way like they did with BBOS or playbook. And also price too mattered!
But still...just check the amount of people who bought BB10. If BlackBerry could accomplish this much with less to no existent marketing, how things would have been with vigorous marketing?

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[Denise in Los Angeles]

I understand what u try to say. Even if developers had decided it, BlackBerry could have brought a change to it if they were persistent in their efforts, all those die hard fans and all those earlier die hards would have stood with them. Everybody was waiting to check if BlackBerry is consistent with their words or gona leave them half way like they did with BBOS or playbook. And also price too mattered!
But still...just check the amount of people who bought BB10. If BlackBerry could accomplish this much with less to no existent marketing, how things would have been with vigorous marketing?

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Why spend time saying what if this, what if that. In the end, BB10 failed and has lost money for BlackBerry. No what ifs can change it. Sorry, but its the truth.

[Tien-Lin Chang]

I understand what u try to say. Even if developers had decided it, BlackBerry could have brought a change to it if they were persistent in their efforts, all those die hard fans and all those earlier die hards would have stood with them. Everybody was waiting to check if BlackBerry is consistent with their words or gona leave them half way like they did with BBOS or playbook. And also price too mattered!
But still...just check the amount of people who bought BB10. If BlackBerry could accomplish this much with less to no existent marketing, how things would have been with vigorous marketing?

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Even you put the market share of M$ and BB10 together it still less than 1% worldwide. If the developer, big companies and customers don't give a crap to 0.7% market share M$, I really don't think an extra 0.2% can change anything.

[kvndoom]

This is the oversimplified logic that people like to use. It's very frustrating.

It's also the truth that people refuse to accept. It's very frustrating.

Passport SE, "The BlockBerry" - Cricket Wireless

[Aju]

Why spend time saying what if this, what if that. In the end, BB10 failed and has lost money for BlackBerry. No what ifs can change it. Sorry, but its the truth.

Yes...very well right in that case!
But I guess its for "what ifs" and "what would have I done" clauses this forum is for right?


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[Aju]

Even you put the market share of M$ and BB10 together it still less than 1% worldwide. If the developer, big companies and customers don't give a crap to 0.7% market share M$, I really don't think an extra 0.2% can change anything.

I guess u missed the point what I said....if they had done it better, they would have had more marketshare...and if more market share, more devs...BlackBerry just had to maintain the momentum off big apps somehow...rest everything would have fall in right place.

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[anon(3983727)]

Speaking as a simpleton, I fail to see a better example in the world today.

Microsoft, a company that tried to make a go after Apple and Android were established with their respective ecosystems, spent ungodly amounts of money on wooing developers, marketing, and buying hardware manufacturers, could not gain any traction at all.

Can you come up with as compelling a counter example?

That is a very good point.. the major difference is that Microsoft was never an iconic leader in mobile headsets. Blackberry should have a much easier time winning back users than capturing new. Instead Blackberry abandoned the former and current users to try an impossible feat. Blackberry's biggest flops were the devices that tried to displace Apple and Android products. Blackberry fails to realize there is still a market for what they do, but they don't want it. They refused to settle for a smaller market share and in the end lose everything.
BTW even if Blackberry never lost a single user they would still be waaaaay behind Google and Apple.

[anon(3983727)]

Why spend time saying what if this, what if that. In the end, BB10 failed and has lost money for BlackBerry. No what ifs can change it. Sorry, but its the truth.

Blackberry's attempt at the most popular OS in the world has had even worse results that the "failure" that was the Z10. Obviously there is more to it than just the OS. I would wager that the Passport sold and possibly still sells better than the Priv even with no carrier support. (Respective release time)

[kvndoom]

That is a very good point.. the major difference is that Microsoft was never an iconic leader in mobile headsets. Blackberry should have a much easier time winning back users than capturing new. Instead Blackberry abandoned the former and current users to try an impossible feat. Blackberry's biggest flops were the devices that tried to displace Apple and Android products. Blackberry fails to realize there is still a market for what they do, but they don't want it. They refused to settle for a smaller market share and in the end lose everything.
BTW even if Blackberry never lost a single user they would still be waaaaay behind Google and Apple.

The Z10 WAS blackberry's attempt to go after Apple and Android! It was a consumer-focused touchscreen slab! Where were you in 2013 when they had the faux-Steve Jobs reveal, Alicia Keys as "music liaison" and all that garbage? You think that was aimed at 9900 owners???

The Q10 should have been the first phone out the gate, or at least released simultaneously. And 3 years later, BB10 still doesn't have the same level of personalization and customization that BB7 had. It took me a while to get used to it, coming from a 9900. It's leaps and bounds easier to personalize than IOS or Android, but a step backwards from BBOS. Blackberry fought a war they couldn't win against Apple and Google, but at the same time, didn't make a viable upgrade plan for the BBOS people who got them as far as they did.

[anon(3983727)]

The Z10 WAS blackberry's attempt to go after Apple and Android! It was a consumer-focused touchscreen slab! Where were you in 2013 when they had the faux-Steve Jobs reveal, Alicia Keys as "music liaison" and all that garbage? You think that was aimed at 9900 owners???

The Q10 should have been the first phone out the gate, or at least released simultaneously. And 3 years later, BB10 still doesn't have the same level of personalization and customization that BB7 had. It took me a while to get used to it, coming from a 9900. It's leaps and bounds easier to personalize than IOS or Android, but a step backwards from BBOS. Blackberry fought a war they couldn't win against Apple and Google, but at the same time, didn't make a viable upgrade plan for the BBOS people who got them as far as they did.

The Storm, Storm 2, Z10, Z30, Leap, Priv are exactly was i was referring to as well. I agree with you. Full touch slabs have never been successful for Blackberry.

[markmall]

It's also the truth that people refuse to accept. It's very frustrating.

Passport SE, "The BlockBerry" - Cricket Wireless

The issue is that you don't know the "truth" any better than us. Declaring something to be the "truth" and that those that disagree with you are somehow weak because they won't admit to your perception of the "truth" is not good debate. We might see the "truth" differently than you.

Certain things can be declared to be scientifically proven "truth." We know the Earth revolves around the Sun. We know falling objects accelerate at a constant rate. We know the ratio of the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter is roughly 3.14159265358979323846.

We do not, however, know that Blackberry 10 would have failed if the company had done things differently -- such as invested more in strategic marketing after the initial launch. We also do not know if Blackberry 10 will necessarily fail going forward if Blackberry changes its marketing strategy and app strategy. Of if the market changes such as browsers becoming dominant over apps.

Apparently, Blackberry now understands that it must spend money marketing because it aired at east on commercial that included the Passport. Also, it is advertising the Priv which it did not do with BB10 after the initial launch.

[conite]

Also, it is advertising the Priv which it did not do with BB10 after the initial launch.

I'm sorry, but I could not turn on the TV and not see the BlackBerry "keep moving" commercials.

There were adds in the newspapers, and it was pushed heavily by carriers and the tech stores here.

Sales were actually very strong initially, but the returns were very high when people didn't have the apps they wanted and / or were unwilling to deal with the learning curve.

[kvndoom]

The issue is that you don't know the "truth" any better than us. Declaring something to be the "truth" and that those that disagree with you are somehow weak because they won't admit to your perception of the "truth" is not good debate. We might see the "truth" differently than you.

Certain things can be declared to be scientifically proven "truth." We know the Earth revolves around the Sun. We know falling objects accelerate at a constant rate. We know the ratio of the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter is roughly 3.14159265358979323846.

We do not, however, know that Blackberry 10 would have failed if the company had done things differently -- such as invested more in strategic marketing after the initial launch. We also do not know if Blackberry 10 will necessarily fail going forward if Blackberry changes its marketing strategy and app strategy. Of if the market changes such as browsers becoming dominant over apps.

Apparently, Blackberry now understands that it must spend money marketing because it aired at east on commercial that included the Passport. Also, it is advertising the Priv which it did not do with BB10 after the initial launch.

Fine, then call it statistics if you don't want to call it the truth. Truth is absolute; statistics show reliability of given data. You're still dealing with variables and unknowns that cannot and will not ever be proven. All we do have is the current state of things.

So it can be said with 99.8% certainty (that's 1.00 minus Blackberry OS marketshare) that the buying public doesn't want Blackberry phones. Close enough for me. It can also be said with 99.3% certainty that the buying public doesn't want Windows phones.

[Prem WatsApp]

BB10 never had many diehard fans. You'll find more people who miss their Bolds than give a crap about BB10.

Y U sayin' this?

There must be a few... ;-D

�   There's a Crack in the Berry right now...   �

[markmall]

I'm sorry, but I could not turn on the TV and not see the BlackBerry "keep moving" commercials.

There were adds in the newspapers, and it was pushed heavily by carriers and the tech stores here.

Sales were actually very strong initially, but the returns were very high when people didn't have the apps they wanted and / or were unwilling to deal with the learning curve.

The OS was not finished. It was a mess. Link was not even working. I remember driving around trying to find a specific cell carrier that had rolled out an update that would allow me to sync with Outlook just so I can update my phone with Verizon. It was chaos.

After the poor rollout, Blackberry tried to sell itself. It stopped all marketing efforts. No product line succeeds this way. If we are going to talk about MSFT, we should talk about the Surface. It famously flopped the first iteration and the whole RT OS they used for some of them. I'm typing on a Surface Pro 3. They are successful because MSFT learned from their mistakes and believed in their concept.

Yes, MSFT had more money to invest, but you can't just have a hit right away. Blackberry go too scared by their initial problems. When the OS finally matured and they released epic devices like Passport and Z30 no one knew about them. (Although Passport got lots of press attention which Chen badly squandered.)

[MrScotian]

I'm sorry, but I could not turn on the TV and not see the BlackBerry "keep moving" commercials.

There were adds in the newspapers, and it was pushed heavily by carriers and the tech stores here.

Sales were actually very strong initially, but the returns were very high when people didn't have the apps they wanted and / or were unwilling to deal with the learning curve.

I live near Montreal and the only PRIV ads I saw were static ads on webpages. Aside from recently seeing one on this site, I have never seen a Blackberry ANYTHING ad on TV or a video ad on the web since the days of the Playbook. The number of people that see my Z30 and comment how they did not know Blackberry still makes phones and have never heard of BB10 or the PRIV further backs this up. Add to that, after the PRIV launch I went to my local Bell store and saw one powered up, in the back corner of the store with no obvious advertisement nearby. Ok, Great. Then salesperson knew nothing about it and I ended up given the sales pitch to them! Fail.

Blackberry 10 not Android

[Jack Chin]

After the poor rollout, Blackberry tried to sell itself. It stopped all marketing efforts. No product line succeeds this way. If we are going to talk about MSFT, we should talk about the Surface. It famously flopped the first iteration and the whole RT OS they used for some of them. I'm typing on a Surface Pro 3. They are successful because MSFT learned from their mistakes and believed in their concept.

Yes, MSFT had more money to invest, but you can't just have a hit right away. Blackberry go too scared by their initial problems. [. . .]

You can have a hit right away. See iPod, iPhone and iPad for examples--and, heck, the iMac. See the Ford Mustang, BMW M3, and Dodge/Mercedes Sprinter Van. See the Learjet 23 and Gulfstream III. See Levi's blue jeans. The list goes on and on. As a rule, you want to hit it out the park from the outset, so as to define your segment--to be the standard rather than the comparison. You always want to be McDonald's, not Burger King. In an ecosystem-defined enterprise, it's even more important.

The Surface originally flopped because Windows RT was an ARM-based mutant that, other than running essentially full versions of MS Office, couldn't run any software people were accustomed to running under Windows--the myriad third-party stuff that defines what we now call its ecosystem. Throw in the botched UI launch of Windows 8, and it took a MSFT-sized bankroll (and a lot of good work) to turn the Surface line into a moderate-to-large success. Once they got full Windows on them, the Surface line became a hit--and a threat both to Apple's iPad AND Macbook lines.

Microsoft's Surface experience is a cautionary tale. You suggest that "[t]hey are successful because MSFT learned from their mistakes and believed in their concept." While these are pre- or co-requisites to success, they hardly define the recipe. MSFT had a known, sizable market niche to fill, yet floundered badly.

BlackBerry didn't even have that, and all the money, marketing, and unicorns in the world would not have changed the outcome for BB10--save for a rollout no later than 2009 (and that would have been optimistic). Debuting six years (!!!) after iPhone, and in the face of an entrenched and still-growing Android alternative, BB10 was dead in the water as a consumer product, despite any marginal advantages.







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[Jack Chin]

Also, that BlackBerry is still selling BB10 handsets when they and all non-deaf/blind consumers know it's a dead product is a terrible public relations move. Would you, as CIO, sign-on with MSFT'S enterprise solutions if they were also still hawking Windows RT tablets?

The suggestion is ludicrous, yet that is close to what BlackBerry is doing in their 'transition' to an enterprise software something-or-other. I know they need every nickel, but Jesus. Call the scrap yard already. And throw the Priv inventory in the bin while you're at it. (Psst. . .it's going to take more than one trip.)

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[anon(3983727)]

Fine, then call it statistics if you don't want to call it the truth. Truth is absolute; statistics show reliability of given data. You're still dealing with variables and unknowns that cannot and will not ever be proven. All we do have is the current state of things.

So it can be said with 99.8% certainty (that's 1.00 minus Blackberry OS marketshare) that the buying public doesn't want Blackberry phones. Close enough for me. It can also be said with 99.3% certainty that the buying public doesn't want Windows phones.

You cant say that either. You CAN say that people have not purchased Blackberry's devices. To suggest that people "don't want" is pure speculation. My speculation is that Blackberry never offered an upgrade path for existing users and potential users were run off by the pricing and lack of carrier support (Available subsidies and compatible devices for their network). The facts that I have gathered though through social networking is that most people (who responded to my questions posted on Facebook and had heard of BB10) DO in fact want a Blackberry device but saw nothing compelling in their lineup, could not afford one or the device was not available from their carrier. Out of just under 300 people who actually replied, the common response was that they did not know of BB10. The few (15) who had heard of it said it was priced too high or couldn't find one at their carrier store.

[conite]

You cant say that either. You CAN say that people have not purchased Blackberry's devices. To suggest that people "don't want" is pure speculation. My speculation is that Blackberry never offered an upgrade path for existing users and potential users were run off by the pricing and lack of carrier support (Available subsidies and compatible devices for their network). The facts that I have gathered though through social networking is that most people (who responded to my questions posted on Facebook and had heard of BB10) DO in fact want a Blackberry device but saw nothing compelling in their lineup, could not afford one or the device was not available from their carrier. Out of just under 300 people who actually replied, the common response was that they did not know of BB10. The few (15) who had heard of it said it was priced too high or couldn't find one at their carrier store.

More than 90% of existing BBOS users did NOT buy a BB10 device - and they all knew BlackBerry existed. They all received directed advertising expousing all the features of the new devices.

Talking about an upgrade path for the few that did buy BB10 devices is of no real consequence.

[markmall]

You can have a hit right away. See iPod, iPhone and iPad for examples--and, heck, the iMac. See the Ford Mustang, BMW M3, and Dodge/Mercedes Sprinter Van. See the Learjet 23 and Gulfstream III. See Levi's blue jeans. The list goes on and on. As a rule, you want to hit it out the park from the outset, so as to define your segment--to be the standard rather than the comparison. You always want to be McDonald's, not Burger King. In an ecosystem-defined enterprise, it's even more important.

The Surface originally flopped because Windows RT was an ARM-based mutant that, other than running essentially full versions of MS Office, couldn't run any software people were accustomed to running under Windows--the myriad third-party stuff that defines what we now call its ecosystem. Throw in the botched UI launch of Windows 8, and it took a MSFT-sized bankroll (and a lot of good work) to turn the Surface line into a moderate-to-large success. Once they got full Windows on them, the Surface line became a hit--and a threat both to Apple's iPad AND Macbook lines.

Microsoft's Surface experience is a cautionary tale. You suggest that "[t]hey are successful because MSFT learned from their mistakes and believed in their concept." While these are pre- or co-requisites to success, they hardly define the recipe. MSFT had a known, sizable market niche to fill, yet floundered badly.

BlackBerry didn't even have that, and all the money, marketing, and unicorns in the world would not have changed the outcome for BB10--save for a rollout no later than 2009 (and that would have been optimistic). Debuting six years (!!!) after iPhone, and in the face of an entrenched and still-growing Android alternative, BB10 was dead in the water as a consumer product, despite any marginal advantages.







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There are so many factual errors in your response I'm not going to bother... OK, do you really know how quickly Levis blue jeans became a "hit" 100 years ago when Mr. Levi sold them to gold miners?

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